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A note on SBRs

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This topic contains 25 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of SeanT SeanT 10 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #34767
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    Took my 11.5″ SBR to Combat Patrol this weekend and have a few notes to make about that.I ran a suppressor most of the time but went sans can on 1 or 2 runs.These notes are relevant without the can.

    1. The concussive blast from an SBR will create a mild shit storm in front of your barrel when prone. Beside creating a haze in your sightline, it also make a pretty big visual signature to the bad guys.

    2. The short barrel also makes it more difficult to get the muzzle out past ground debris when prone – you may shoot into logs and such if not really aware of it.

    In short, I don’t see any advantages (other than a little weight) for running a SBR in a non-urban/vehicle environment and will bring a 14.5 or 16″ rifle to the next class.

    #34776
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    We have seen this a lot at classes. Guys running “loundeners” on their rifles leave a huge signature every time they fire. And when the light and temperature is just right, it puts out a huge fireball.

    The shortest I would recommend for any fighting rifle is 14.5″

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #34780
    Profile photo of Roadkill
    Roadkill
    Participant

    Were you running a muzzle brake or a flash hider?

    RS/CTT Nov 16
    HEAT1 Aug18

    #34795
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    @roadkill – the AAC Brakeout – half flash, half brake, Or as others might say, one that does neither particularly well ;) It’s proprietary for the AAC can. <12.5″ barrels are just plain loud regardless of what’s on the end (can excluded)

    #34796
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    IMO
    If you run an SBR you need to run a suppressor on it :mail: full time to decrease noise and flash signature.

    But if you run a suppressor expect your rifle to be stupid dirty with you having to clean much more in the field. The AR design has the sewage line running thru the kitchen. You really want that SHTF?

    If you kick down doors for a living, I understand the need for suppressor but you will go back to home/base every night to clean your rifle. But if your in the field for multiple days, why would you want a suppressor on a AR? I just dont get it?

    If you are dead set on a ninja suppressor on your AR then buy a piston AR like a PWS and your cleaning issue is solved.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #34831
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Dust kicking up was a real bitch when I was working and we were issued Styer Augs. The little 1x scope wasn’t even a good carry handle at night either. I got to where I would use an 870 with #4 buck when working the river at night.

    #34835
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    @hellokitty I’ve run a rifle with a can for 1,000s of rounds with no cleaning/no hiccups – keep her wet and she’ll run ;) Benefits of a can, where do I start…

    1. Less recoil, faster POA reset round #2 and beyond
    2. Virtually no visual signature
    3. Difficult for bad guys to triangulate audible signature close, no clue at distance
    4. No need for earpro
    5. Easier comms with team – everyone equipped or not
    6. Less likely to plug muzzle device with debris
    7. Great blunt striking surface ;)

    #34850
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    @veritas556
    I’m glad you like it. Drive on. But your reasons…nah
    1. I can do that without a suppressor.
    2. true
    3. Lone sniper? In a team, it’s gonna be loud.
    4. Your gun is quiet. Everyone else’s? No wear ear pro
    5. See 3.
    6. Not an issue with any rifle with a hider or brake.
    7. My vortex hider will do same.

    My opinion is unchanged but good try. :good:

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #34851
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    Do you even own a suppressor bro? LOL

    1. Unless you’re running a brake, no – you’re not getting back to POA as fast. If so, you’re adding all the bad things abut a brake – noise, signature, dust.

    3. One suppressor = 3 guns firing vs. 4 = less noise. Had way easier time communicating with my team with the can.

    4. See #3

    5. See #3

    6. On CP this weekend had a stick broken off and lodged in my muzzle device sans can. Buddy pointed it out and took a 2 min to pry it out in my room! Not happening with a can.

    7. ;)

    8. Back to #2 and 3 – suppressor is a force multiplier. Bad guys will have no idea where rounds are coming from.

    If not for cost, I can’t imagine why suppressors wouldn’t be standard issue gear. Mated to a 12.5″ barrel, pretty ideal in my experience.

    #34860
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    Yes I have experience with one. And your reasons are still lacking to get one.

    If you need a muzzle device to shoot good and fast, you need to practice. If you get debris in your muzzle device, shoot it out. Unless you pack mud into your barrel, it doesn’t matter. Lots of guys shooting is loud, I don’t care if you got a can or not.

    Spend your money on training.

    Look it’s a matter of priorities.
    Rifle
    Pistol
    Training
    More training
    Morer training
    NVG
    IR laser
    Thermal
    Can

    All that takes money. If your buying a can but not getting more training, it’s wrong.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #34861
    Profile photo of Mike Q
    Mike Q
    Participant

    Both HelloKitty & Veritas556 make good points.

    Having an entire team using suppressors would be good. They are much quieter and they have less visual signature. I personally am not a fan of SBR’s but to each his own. If you had a 16″ barrel with a suppressor then that’s a lot of weight hanging out there. The flip side being the opposing guys probably won’t all be running suppressors. That being said, I wouldn’t mind having one for myself. :good:

    Training is more important then gear. Yes you need the basic equipment. But the training will help guide you in the best direction on where to move forward. How many of us have friends who’ve spent thousands and thousands on equipment with not one training class?! Now once you get some training and decide to spend money on different equipment i.e. suppressors, NVG’s, FLIR, etc. then by all means have at it! Each person’s priorities are there own. As long as the basics of rifle, ammo, LBE, mags, and spare parts are taken care of then have fun with acquiring new stuff.

    Just my opinion. And you know what they say about people and opinions…

    There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it twice.

    CRM Sept. 2014, CTT 1505, CTT July 2015, RC-Rifleman 1502, CP Nov. 2015, FoF March 2016, CCW May 2016, FoF Oct. 2016, FoF Nov. 2016, CLC April 2017, FoF Nov. 2017, Alumni weekend Aug. 2018, CQB Dec. 2018

    #34866
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    KItty – let’s just agree that a SBR should be run with a can and gear spending shouldn’t trump training investment. :good:

    #34873
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    :good:

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #34875
    Profile photo of JeffSags
    JeffSags
    Participant

    Look it’s a matter of priorities.
    Rifle
    Pistol
    Training
    More training
    Morer training
    NVG
    IR laser
    Thermal
    Can

    :good: I like this

    I think I’m on the morer training phase of this progression!

    CRCD AUG 13, CRCD MAR 14, CP AUG 14, CR MAR 15, Shivworks ECQC, MVT RIFLEMAN, CTT AUG 16, CQBC

    #56456
    Profile photo of Keeper aka "Sun Shine"
    Keeper
    Participant

    Running a SBR without a “can” is crazy. But a SBR with a “can” is a great thing. In the process of putting a SBR/CQB together right now. Going to use my 30 CAL can on it, should be pretty quite. I have shot UTM’s out of a 16″ & 14.5″ barrel enough that I know I don’t like pounding out stuck rounds. Shorter barrel less friction less chance of a round getting stuck.Used a 7.5″ SBR with UTMs never had a stuck round and the shot the same distance each and every time.

    Alumni living in N.E Fla. for now. Going to retire in Iowa on the farm some day soon.

    #56462
    Profile photo of A_A_Ron2guns
    A_A_Ron2guns
    Participant

    Can for me. If you know what you’re doing there is no down side. You should be cleaning your weapon and conducting PMCS regularly anyway.

    There’s a reason the marine Corp wants to issue them to everyone and the army is looking at doing it too.

    You are what you do, when it counts. -The Masao

    Not the other Aaron's in this industry!

    #56464
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Consider this: the psychological effect on the enemy of not having a can. Yes, you can say that there is a psychological effect of having cans, if they all started dying soundlessly! i.e. they hear no sound as they die LOL. But reading that book Recce, when they went in their 2 man teams on CTR, the point guy would carry a suppressed pistol or SMG. The second guy slightly behind would carry something loud like an SKS. Why? The suppressed weapon would kill, if it hit, which is hard if you are breaking contact or your life. But it would not stop pursuit. The SKS or AK or whatever, even if it was not hitting (think night before NVGs) would create a sound that would create suppression and hesitation i.e. dudes would take cover. Yes, also if it is high velocity there is also the crack of passing rounds, which there is not with the pistol or SMG.

    Yes we can all hear better when using UTM which is quiet enough that it is like everyone is suppressed. But other than the fact that it is not real, the only thing that makes you take cover when using UTM, is the sound of the passing rounds whcih other than the lack of high velocity crack is similar to close passing real rounds.

    So think about when perhaps trying to break contact or doing a raid or ambush, the additional psychological effect of the noise you make unsuppressed. This may well aid suppression of the enemy.

    #56465
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Some clever ass will come back and tell me that they can kill all the enemy suppressed before they know they are being shot at. Yah, Yah, blah. Shit like that does not happen in reality. But if it puts their heads down and they are not up taking aim back at you, that is a good thing.

    SF dudes in the video we just saw were largely suppressed. I wonder what effect that had on holding the terrorists back, or not, if the bad guys were not hearing a volume of fire coming their way?

    #56468
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    You know I have never had a stuck UTM round in my barrel using UTM. I guess my barrels are magical. Or maybe I clean my weapon end of everyday and make sure my barrels are dry. Or maybe I am just the luckiest guy in the world. I am really good looking so it must be just lucky.

    I have a can. Don’t like it much.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #56469
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    I am really good looking so it must be just lucky.

    Perhaps the UTM rounds, when fired, are actually running away from your face? :scratch:

    ;-)

    #56471
    Profile photo of Keeper aka "Sun Shine"
    Keeper
    Participant

    I am really good looking so it must be just lucky.

    Perhaps the UTM rounds, when fired, are actually running away from your face? :scratch:

    ;-)

    Or just Plain Old Magic huh

    Alumni living in N.E Fla. for now. Going to retire in Iowa on the farm some day soon.

    #56473
    Profile photo of Keeper aka "Sun Shine"
    Keeper
    Participant

    I have a can. Don’t like it much.

    is it up for adoption ? if so I can provide a good home for it :good:

    Alumni living in N.E Fla. for now. Going to retire in Iowa on the farm some day soon.

    #56475
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    You guys know me too well.
    :yahoo:

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #56482
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I’ll make this comment on a couple of threads: Sweet balls of fire; is the forum devolving?

    I think, if I recall, that I posted something actually tacticaly useful a little way above…..

    #56539
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    I am really good looking so it must be just lucky.

    Perhaps the UTM rounds, when fired, are actually running away from your face? :scratch:

    ;-)

    no… they go right to his face.

    #56541
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    I’ll make this comment on a couple of threads: Sweet balls of fire; is the forum devolving?

    I think, if I recall, that I posted something actually tacticaly useful a little way above…..

    I can see Max’s point. Sometimes loud, prickly, aggravated and unrelenting might just buy a little bluf time to gtfo of whatever bad spot you are in.

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