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Aggression, and Speed of Engagement

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  • #34149
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    One of the things that I had case to comment on in some of the debriefs on the October 1-2 Fore on Force Team Tactics, was aggressive mindset and speed of engagement. This was an individual, primarily, but also a team thing.

    ‘Team SwampDogs’ seemed to be, on the whole, made up of kinder and gentler souls. ‘Team Deplorables’ was made up of some nasty types. What this meant was that when prosecuting a team engagement, the Deplorables would often prevail due to a greater aggression, coordination, and general speed in getting ‘firstest with the mostest’ in terms of weight of fire on the enemy, coordination, and maneuver. Not the same every time, of course.

    I also noticed what seemed to me to be a hesitation, or freezing, on the part of some. Often this happened in what passed for cover, but wasn’t really, so that once the aggressive enemy caught sight of them, it was rapidly over in a hail of incoming fire.

    I commented that a lot of this has to do both with PT, and an aggressive mindset. One of the things that FoF does, is make you aim at another human and pull the trigger. You need that mixture of combat rifle training, physical speed, and aggression to get your weapon into the fight, get yourself to effective cover, and kill the enemy. This is what the RTR drill is really about. Not the half-ass one you like to do and get away with on the live ranges against pop-up Ivan, but the real one where you need to scoot fast into real cover, get a location on the enemy, and kill him before he kills you.

    You must also move. I use the phrase ‘keep low, move fast’ and that really means what it says. Never stay in one place. I have said before that if you do,the enemy will maneuver on you and kill you. Happens all the time now in Force on Force.

    There is also the issue of volume, which goes to coordination. When silent, you need to be able to communicate effectively with hand signals. When it goes noisy, there is no point trying to be silent. Use a loud aggressive command voice to get the team moving how you need it to.

    But above all, do not hesitate with the shot. There are some grey areas in FoF with the effective range of the UTM MMR round. But if fire is coming in on you, take cover and simply rain fire at the enemy, adjust fire and walk it on. Do not lay there in a semi-freeze. Kill.

    #34151
    Profile photo of Jason Howe
    BrothersKeeper
    Participant

    Thanks for the reminders Max. You addressed all my concerns and I’m sure I will make all those mistakes several times. I think I remember you saying that even if you are not sure which way to move . . . move somewhere! I’m probably overplaying my concerns. My best lessons when I’m in my KRAV MAGA class are when I get my clock cleaned by someone better. I just need to get my ass to F on F and get shot until I figure it out.

    Land Nav 06/15
    Rifle Skills/CTT/CP
    10/15
    CLC 04/17
    Alumni Live Fire 08/18

    Don’t let your past define your future.

    #34152
    Profile photo of Robert
    Robert
    Participant

    Can I get an amen?

    Yes.

    Did some blank training with some folks not too long ago. One guy says “well I’m not going to be aiming directly at anyone anyways.” I said, “well your a nicer guy than me and you SHOULDN’T BE. Aim AT THE PERSON.”

    Too often the “never hurt anyone” mantra/mindset deal hinders our training. You need to be shooting at the enemy and continue shooting until they are down, period. Where the hell else are you going to get a chance to break that psych barrier?

    It sounds stupid but sometimes you can “feel” the hesitation on the others part. We see this in combatives all the time.

    You have to seize and hold the initiative, initiative being the freedom to ACT versus being forced to REACT. In combatives if we can get the person RE acting to what we are doing we can usually win or dominate the fight. Sometimes you have to “throw the kitchen sink” at someone, but you continue to keep working angles, changing things, etc. till something sticks.

    It’s that FLEXIBILITY that’s often the hard thing for people to get. They are used to things/life being too scripted for lack of a better term.

    Have a plan yeah but don’t be a slave to the plan, be flexible.

    Mike Tyson- “everyone has a plan till they get they punched in the mouth.”

    Von Molke (sp?) “no plan survives first contact.”

    www.jrhenterprises.com
    RMP, TC3, NODF, CRCD 6/14, CP 9/14. NODF, Land Nav, 6/15. Rifleman Challenge 9/15- Vanguard. FOFtactics 3/16, 10/16, 11/16, 6/17,11/17 CTT, 6/15, 11/16, , LRMC-1 9/17 GA Mobile CTT and DA 10/16, GA mobile DCH 3/18, HEAT1 3/18 Alum weekend 8/18, Opfor CLC 10/18, DA 11/18 CQBC 12/18

    #34161
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    Can I get an amen?

    Yes.

    Did some blank training with some folks not too long ago. One guy says “well I’m not going to be aiming directly at anyone anyways.” I said, “well your a nicer guy than me and you SHOULDN’T BE. Aim AT THE PERSON.”

    Too often the “never hurt anyone” mantra/mindset deal hinders our training. You need to be shooting at the enemy and continue shooting until they are down, period. Where the hell else are you going to get a chance to break that psych barrier?

    Von Molke (sp?) “no plan survives first contact.”

    I have seen this as well in handgun classes(not at DHC). There are some people out there who will never be able to actually point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, no matter what.

    Von Moltke the Elder, “no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force.”

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #34164
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    In H2H, we talk about hitting first, hitting fast, and hitting hard.

    Strictly an observation (scheduled for TX in 2017) – generally, it goes against human nature to intentionally take the life of another human. Having spent a youth being taught to NEVER point a firearm at another person, it took going through academy for sheriff deputy to overcome. While shooting at a silhouette helps, and shooting at mannequins gets closer to home, Max’s FonF class should help overcome those “ingrained taboos.”

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #34166
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    There are some people out there who will never be able to actually point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, no matter what.

    Had an agent in the office that told me that once while we were qualifying. I never again took him with me on any enforcement actions. If it was a group thing, he was the evidence keeper, after the door had been kicked and the place, and people, secured.

    How do people get into a line of work, where shit can go bad, at any moment, with a mindset like that? Beyond me.

    #34168
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    There are some people out there who will never be able to actually point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, no matter what.

    How do people get into a line of work, where shit can go bad, at any moment, with a mindset like that? Beyond me.

    Had a fellow SWAT officer tell me the same……. then we hit a location with a suspect who would be on strike 3 (life in prison) and CI had said he would shoot before going back…..Same officer said “hope there ain’t gonna be no shooting”, and I was paired with…..do you know the feeling of taking a man down who would rather shoot it out with a “partner” who isn’t sure if he can “return fire?” It all worked out but I grew eyes in the back of my head before going in……

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #34170
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    do you know the feeling of taking a man down who would rather shoot it out with a “partner” who isn’t sure if he can “return fire?

    Yes, there were several, who never verbalized it, but who I had doubts about, and if I had to work with them down on the river, I always had even more awareness than normal. And I was usually pretty keyed up down there, because we were always, outnumbered.

    #34171
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    I have seen this as well in handgun classes(not at DHC). There are some people out there who will never be able to actually point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, no matter what.

    I remember actively feeling’odd’ the first round of FoF with my ‘real’ rifle in my hands shooting at the other guys. That wore off in about .25 seconds since they were shooting back! I have always known that I could and would but that taboo of muzzle control definitely had sunk in over all the years.

    And yeah, move and keep moving. I also will admit to recognizing my freeze response on contact and hearing that voice in my head telling the feet to get moving. You are not going to just overcome that response by magic, but by practice.

    #34178
    Profile photo of Keeper aka "Sun Shine"
    Keeper
    Participant

    Team SwampDogs’ seemed to be, on the whole, made up of kinder and gentler souls. ‘Team Deplorables’ was made up of some nasty types. What this meant was that when prosecuting a team engagement, the Deplorables would often prevail due to a greater aggression, coordination, and general speed in getting ‘firstest with the mostest’ in terms of weight of fire on the enemy, coordination, and maneuver.

    This was true Team Deplorable’s were go getter and I have to admit us Swamp Dogs were a little softer. The few things I did learn was we need better commutation silent & when going loud and along with electronic i.e. radio and deploy with stronger advances towards the enemy and drop the hammer HARD. “Time to break out the Klingon attitude towards warfare”

    Alumni living in N.E Fla. for now. Going to retire in Iowa on the farm some day soon.

    #34202
    Profile photo of Jason Howe
    BrothersKeeper
    Participant

    A question for Max and those who have attended FOF. As you read Max’s novels, the set piece battles have a real flow to them, and the two opposing forces are performing their initial RTR and then quite a few moves, which include bounding to or from contact, peeling, hasty ambush, really understanding and using terrain to their advantage . . . the point I’m trying to make is that the fictional characters are really utilizing many core aspects of SUT to win the battle. Are the engagements in FOF class lasting long enough for instance to RTR, bound away from contact, set a hasty ambush, or perhaps have a second team in depth to set up enfilade or defilade fire and roll the bad guys up. I’m guessing at least some of the battles end quickly in a blaze of gunfire but knowing Max I have a feeling he is trying to get class participants to maneuver correctly and do more than just RTR and maybe a bound or two.

    Land Nav 06/15
    Rifle Skills/CTT/CP
    10/15
    CLC 04/17
    Alumni Live Fire 08/18

    Don’t let your past define your future.

    #34211
    Profile photo of Mike Q
    Mike Q
    Participant

    @brotherskeeper – yes. There were ambushes, counter ambushes, reserve teams, circular firefights (where each team was trying to outflank the other). A lot of the scenarios were fairly rapid, but some had each force bouncing back, base to base…

    There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it twice.

    CRM Sept. 2014, CTT 1505, CTT July 2015, RC-Rifleman 1502, CP Nov. 2015, FoF March 2016, CCW May 2016, FoF Oct. 2016, FoF Nov. 2016, CLC April 2017, FoF Nov. 2017, Alumni weekend Aug. 2018, CQB Dec. 2018

    #34216
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    Abolutely yes. Example on Sunday. The SL set up an ambush with 4 man team on likely approach. SL kept 2 man element in reserve behind terraign feature as a maneuver element.
    Enemy bumped ambush and took 2 dead. Enemy broke contact and retreated. SL assessed situation and had the 4 man fire team push forward toward enemy base with 2 man element trailing by a tactical bound. Once close to base, SL oriented fire team on axis of advance to enemy base. Fire team advanced in bounds using f&m until making contact. 2 man maneuver element is in cover behind and out of site. Fire team hits enemy defenses. SL tells fire team to go static and provide fire support. The SL goes back and gets 2 man element and flanks right in a draw concealing approach. Intent is to flank defense at right angle to fire support team.

    This actually happened. Of course the enemy had a say on these maneuvers and it didnt quite work out. Lol. But yes it is not a paintball melee. It is SUT.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #34218
    Profile photo of tango
    tango
    Participant

    ‘Team Deplorables’ was made up of some nasty types

    Baptême du feu
    L'appel du vide

    #34403
    Profile photo of john
    texas
    Participant

    Reading @lowdown3 / Robert and @firstsergeant two quotes on plans (well, Mike Tyson and Von Moltke’s quotes) here:

    Everyone has a plan till they get they punched in the mouth. — Mike Tyson“

    and

    No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force. – Von Moltke the Elder

    I was reminded of one of my favorites:

    In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable. — Dwight D. Eisenhower

    RS/CTT/CP (VTC 10/15)
    RS/CTT/Mobility/NODF (Texas 02/16)
    FoF (VTC 03/16 Blue Team)
    CRS/CTT/NODF (Texas 02/17)
    CQB/FoF (Texas 03/17)
    DCH (VTC 03/17)
    IG: jmp_texas

    #34405
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Von Moltke is usually abbreviated to “No plan survives contact with the enemy.”

    #34411
    Profile photo of john
    texas
    Participant

    @maxvelocity:

    Von Moltke is usually abbreviated to “No plan survives contact with the enemy.”

    I would say that they all have that same base meaning. I also like, and I don’t know where it is from: “A plan to ride a tiger ain’t the same as riding a tiger.” I am glad that you are around to teach us all the basic “plans” for when we may have to ride the tiger. At least we will have a fighting chance.

    @brotherskeeper:

    For me FoF was evidence that the stuff works in real situations, not that I really ever questioned it. Doing a thing versus thinking about doing it are different. Even compared to CTT/CP and the rest FoF is like the exam where you are tested to see if you actually can do what you were taught. You will see all/most of the what we trained for in CTT/CP play out.

    To answer your question specifically:

    I have a feeling he is trying to get class participants to maneuver correctly and do more than just RTR and maybe a bound or two.

    Max doesn’t really interact/lead the teams into anything specific. At most he places us in starting positions that may lead to interesting contacts. But given our free will to choose a path that starting point can only go so far into forming the battle.
    What he has done is influenced our decision making by teaching us how to do things right way. This indirectly leads to how the battle plays out. Minus the ever-present random of course :)

    I would suspect that a FoF team of never-been-to-MVT would get wiped out by a group of alumni. that sort of battle may be more of an RTR and done, I don’t know. Of course, anything can happen, and that is sort of the point of all this type of preparation, planning and training.

    RS/CTT/CP (VTC 10/15)
    RS/CTT/Mobility/NODF (Texas 02/16)
    FoF (VTC 03/16 Blue Team)
    CRS/CTT/NODF (Texas 02/17)
    CQB/FoF (Texas 03/17)
    DCH (VTC 03/17)
    IG: jmp_texas

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