January 28, 2016 at 11:52 pm #24196
I become increasingly sickened by what I see as the opinions and powers of reasoning by many who are considered leaders or influencers in the ‘Patriot / Liberty Community.’ In all honesty, I see nothing but stupid. I cannot square some of the utterly wonky thinking I see out there, not to mention the paranoia contrasted with the ‘good little german’ mentality.
I’m actually sick of the stupid.
This is my notice that MVT is no longer going to be ‘part of that.’ I / we will make our own way, as a training organization for the rational armed citizen. We will act as rationalists and free men, and steer clear of the nut jobs and amateurs.January 29, 2016 at 12:01 am #24197AnonymousInactive
I just watched this enhanced version of the shooting. After watching it a few times, I may very well be wrong. It absolutely does appear that LaVoy was shot while gaining balance in the snow, trying to keep his hands in the air. And then shot again while holding his side, probably the wound.
EDIT: TIMESTAMPS: 0:04 – puts his arms down because he’s walking/trying not to stumble through shin deep snow. 0:05 – hands going back up in the air. 0:06 – being shot and grabbing his side (which is questionable because there’s another agent directly behind LaVoy who would be in the cross fire; none the less, LaVoy’s arms go back down). 0:05-06 – I see recoil from the agent holding the pistol to the lower right of Lavoy. 0:08 – hands down, right hand on his left side. 0:10 – shot by the agent to his left-hand side. That’s what I see.January 29, 2016 at 12:14 am #24198ragnarokParticipant
Right at the onset of the Mahleur protest I stated that it would help separate the wheat from the chaff within the patriot movement….and here we are!
The apologists drank the Kool-aid and are useless at best and dangerous and demoralizing at worst. Wake the F up, 4th Gen warfare is being waged on us.January 29, 2016 at 7:17 am #24200
Watching this several times on a large monitor I noticed that at the 10:30 mark when the helicopter comes around the trees further and you can see the front of the vehicle it appears the windshield has been shoot lower front driver side. Considering the angle of the vehicle facing away from and slightly ahead the LEO vehicles and also it appears all LEOs are at the front of their vehicle they could not have done that. If that is the case then when was that shoot made to the driver side windshield, I would speculate that it was done by the LEO that step out around the back of the blocking vehicle at the time that the Finicum’s vehicle swerved to miss the blocking vehicles and that LEO.
I would guess that the LEO step around the vehicle pointing his gun and startled by how close he was to getting hit fired that round that hit the lower driver side windshield. If that is what happened then all the LEOs already on edge hearing the gunshot would react quickly to any movement they perceived as a threat.
Driving away from the first stop was Finicum’s mistake BUT the stop on the remote road the road block in a curve where there was no time to react other than swerve to miss the vehicles made a stressful incident even worse. With Finicum’s previous statements playing in their heads I think the LEOs over reacted BUT poor planning and over reaction ARE NOT the attributes of professionals.
“As a Constitutional American Patriot, you have less rights and more chance of being killed out of hand, than Hajji does in the Middle East. As a professional soldier, we never behaved this way on operations. Finicum would not have been shot, all the way up until he had a weapon out and was bringing it into the aim. Judgment and calm professionalism would have been employed, and he would have been captured.”
Understand I am not into cop bashing, my brother is a cop, my son-in-law has served as a police officer, a Deputy Sheriff and State Highway Patrolman and my father in the first part of his military career served as an MP. That being said whether the LEOs involved in the shooting were local, state or FBI this whole thing looks poorly planned and unprofessional — unless this is the outcome, you wanted.
CTT 1511, LN 1
“I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence..." - GandhiJanuary 29, 2016 at 7:56 am #24201
@wild Bill: you are not into cop bashing? What is cop bashing? On this forum, we simply tell it like it is, with truth and justice in mind. If you are suggesting that we should not criticise the actions of LEO’S simply because of who they are, then you are too deeply programmed to help. I don’t give a damn how many of your relatives are cops – its either a lawful action or it isnt.
One speculated unlawful action by one cop does not excuse a bunch of other unlawful actions, based on “I was skeered.” I say this despite knowing how often these cops get drawn into circular firing squads, and display poor training, judgment and marksmanship.
Your speculated events, beginning with your one officer firing into the windshield, effectively tried to excuse the killing basee one one mistake / act of incompetence. How would that work out for you as a civilian?
The whole operation was wrong, badly planned, and the vehicles were badly positioned. Do you know if a shot was fired at the original stop that started the attempted escape?
How about asking why the need or justice of the whole action given that they were supposed to be going to a meeting with a Constitutional Sheriff, which turned out to be bait for the ambush.January 29, 2016 at 8:13 am #24202
@MaxVelocity I guess I wasn’t clear, what I am saying is the whole roadblock/ambush was not justified or professional and that is coming from someone who is not into cop bashing and NO I am not accusing anyone else here of bashing cops just to be bashing cops. Unprofessionalism is inexcusable in people that are empowered by the government to use deadly force.
CTT 1511, LN 1
“I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence..." - GandhiJanuary 29, 2016 at 8:18 am #24203
If what I was saying about the shot to the driver side windshield then the LEOs were the ones to set the whole deadly outcome into motion and have further questions to answer about the whole outcome.
CTT 1511, LN 1
“I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence..." - GandhiJanuary 29, 2016 at 8:27 am #24204Joe (G.W.N.S.)Moderator
I’ll be out and about much of today.
I expect many interpretations today as people view video to include enhanced versions.
I suggest we all keep a open mind in search of the facts.
As I have already mentioned the members, cadre, and moderators bring much needed experience and knowledge to bear on these matters.
I expect we will continue to be at the front of the pack for analytical assessment of this.
Please continue the posting of relevant information despite the source, just keep labeling appropriately.January 29, 2016 at 8:32 am #24205
@Wild Bill: glad you cleared that up. We are about rational truth on this forum. We are not impressed or deterred by ‘might is right.’
On another note, I am serious about my comment earlier in this thread about ‘the community.’ I want nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with those who appear to be opinion formers within the ‘community.’ I commented a couple of weeks ago on thr blog about Legitimacy. I see too many small fish in small ponds putting out bad advice, misdirection, and poorly judged courses of action. I already commented here about my opinion of Sam’s assessments, which he now appears to have retracted. I see OathKeepers National as a bunch of jokers.
These ‘leaders’ and opinion formers are not the right people. I dismiss them. I would rather listen to someone like KrisAnne Hall. She has a clear view and good judgment. MVT is breaking all ‘relationships’ with these national ‘leaders’ and organizations. We will simply do our own thing as a training organization, putting out the best combat proven tactical training available in order to keep folks alive when the collapse comes.January 29, 2016 at 9:35 am #24206AndrewParticipant
From someone who has experience with investigations at the federal level the breaking “relationships” actions is probably the wisest thing to do.
If the hot heads and “true” believers continue it is a pretty sure bet that the weight of the feds will come down on them at some point in time. You can bet they have plants/undercover folks out. After that “he who sings first, gets the best deal.” And they will sing, even if they have to make stuff up that is neither provable or unprovable. While that, in itself, may not be enough for a conviction in criminal court, it will be used to weigh the scales in a civil action.
More power to you.January 29, 2016 at 10:02 am #24207
The second road block was on a curve giving the driver no time to react,poorly planned or purposly planned?The shooting started most likely because one LEO stepped out in front of the truck as it was exiting the highway into the snow bank narrowly missing him,he felt the need to play hero.Thats all they needed to start shooting.Critical thinking is not a job requirement in LE any longer.January 29, 2016 at 10:08 am #24208
“On another note, I am serious about my comment earlier in this thread about ‘the community.’ I want nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with those who appear to be opinion formers within the ‘community.’ I commented a couple of weeks ago on thr blog about Legitimacy. I see too many small fish in small ponds putting out bad advice, misdirection, and poorly judged courses of action. I already commented here about my opinion of Sam’s assessments, which he now appears to have retracted. I see OathKeepers National as a bunch of jokers.”
This good to hear,and im glad to see a trainer not pandering to LE when it comes to training.January 29, 2016 at 10:29 am #24210
@Andrew: worry about Fed actions was not actually the reason for the statement. I mean, I’m a trainer and author, I don’t actually have an organization that takes direct action in any way.
The reason, which I hoped I explained, was absolute exasperation with what I see from ‘the community.’ Don’t even get me started on the country as a whole; I am simply going on the working assumption that we live in a lawless post-Constitutional banana republic. I see no equality before law, or justice, anywhere.January 29, 2016 at 10:32 am #24211AndrewParticipant
Gotcha Max, basically I was saying it will be a guilt by association thing if they decide to drop the hammer.January 29, 2016 at 11:14 am #24212trailmanParticipant
Just a couple of points that have been rolling around n my head following our discussion here. On what G.W. said about the LEO’s not all being clued in. Didn’t they all take an oath? And unless these guys are severe knuckledraggers I find it hard to believe that any of them were THAT uninformed of the situation and the intent of the protest or is it hey look terrorists lets blow them away. WHere are the LEO’s that have said we shouldn’t be doing this. These thoughts go towards those discussions we have about the “other” side and who will and who will not support TPTB. Looks a lot to me that there is no support for liberty or ROL on that side of the coin. And for that matter why should I not prepare myself for a bad encounter anytime I meet up with LE as if I’m on the odds side of a bad encounter I’m going to die.
The second thing is what MAX is bringing up. I’m not “in the loop on the names and statements and actions” I can barely remember my kids names. So when following all this you end up with who are all these assholes slinging shit at each other when we should be supporting each other. It gets old and dangerous in the end. I’ve learned through my associations here that the groups that really matter are the ones you never hear about. There was an article I came across somewhere that asked if your patriot group was a personal cult. My eyes have seen a lot of that in the past month.
CRM, CTT 1501, CP11/15, CTT5/16, FoF, DCH, CLC Opfor, Team Minion
Just remember, Anne Frank was a criminal because the government made her one and she died because she broke the law.January 29, 2016 at 2:43 pm #24215January 29, 2016 at 4:49 pm #24216January 29, 2016 at 6:13 pm #24217skeets4039ParticipantJanuary 29, 2016 at 7:33 pm #24218LinemanParticipant
That’s what evil always does… It dance’s in the blood of innocents…It was a Blood Sacrifice by the government for all those who shouted for it… Just take a moment and think that if we did what they did to Lavoy to criminal trying to hurt us we would be in jail right now charged with murder…January 29, 2016 at 7:44 pm #24219LinemanParticipant
Oh and Culper I thought you had something going as an intelligence analysts doesn’t that mean you gather all the facts study them closely and then make an informed decision… Also when your wrong be a man and say guys looks like I fucked up and I’m sorry for jumping the gun… Not this namby pamby shit of well I may of been wrong..January 29, 2016 at 7:44 pm #24220Joe (G.W.N.S.)Moderator
“On what G.W. said about the LEO’s not all being clued in. Didn’t they all take an oath?”
There are several factors involved here.
The institutionalized bureaucracy that limits how they interact, again this has been manipulated to limit dissent from within.
The screening process for how they select people for employment. They are looking for followers not leaders, which goes a long way in explaining the inept leadership demonstrated as they advance.
This is the simple version, books could literally be written on this subject.
“There was an article I came across somewhere that asked if your patriot group was a personal cult. My eyes have seen a lot of that in the past month.”
There are direct parallels between many groups and the above regarding Federal LEO’s.
The founding members of many groups place there desire for control over the quality of members.January 29, 2016 at 9:17 pm #24223EricParticipant
One of the boards I am a member of is frequented by a lot of LEO’s. They are a bunch of fucking assholes! EVERY one of them is calling Finnicum a: POS, a perp, a lunatic, an idiot, who: deserved to get shot, is lucky they weren’t there, should have been killed a long ago, demented individual with delusions of grandeur or had a fantasy about having a shootout at the Ok corral, etc, etc.
It seems that many within the LEO community couldn’t give a single fuck about the constitution, or liberty, or justice in any real sense. It is fucking disgusting really, and makes me wonder, when shit goes sideways, what side are these guys going to be on?
"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"
Thomas JeffersonJanuary 29, 2016 at 9:58 pm #24224EricParticipant
Excellent article from someone who interviewed Lavoy Finnicum the day before he was killed. Great insight here, and one of the main things he brings up is that there were “agents” posing as militia members and spying on Bundy’s group, and passing information to the feds and OSP.
"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"
Thomas JeffersonJanuary 30, 2016 at 8:58 am #24226cynikalParticipant
I spent some time looking at that video, but in my cruising of YouTube I ran into a concerning video (now deleted). it was some live feed and a guy off screen starts to ask about “talent release” forms … one dude jumps up and shuts the camera off and now all those vids are gone. Anyone else see that?
I don’t want to start a posing match but we do need to make sure all the data we gather to act on should be accurate. When trying to get more to tie up any loose ends or to clear up what we were told we have to present it out there. I respect Sam and GW for what they are trying to do – it is not easy to weave through all the stories and get it at 100%
I will try to post a link to the talent release thing.January 30, 2016 at 9:09 am #24227
Talent release is nothing more than a release you sign so that the press can use your interview or footage on tv.January 30, 2016 at 9:23 am #24228rommelParticipant
This is all very interesting. We all have opinions and thoughts on what happen and or why. Just to add my two cents. When Lavoy and company were stopped they no doubt had a conversation with in the vehicle. I suspect it may have involved a discussion on how to continue their protest. For at that point, if they were to surrender their protest was essentially over. Seeing it this way, I can imagine they were discussing their only alternative was to get to the constitutional sheriff and hope that with his protection their protest would have a way of continuing. When arriving upon the blockade, Lavoy, traveling at a rapid rate of speed, in quick decision, decided he could plow through the snow and continue on the other side. Personally, I have many years driving in the snow in a large vehicle under time constraints and have made many aggressive moves when negotiating obstacles in my path. Taking note of how Lavoy rammed the snow bank, his chosen path, and placing his vehicle close enough to the black pick up but not so close as to hit it. I can relate. However, his plan was altered by the sudden presence of the leo. At 9 min 16 sec into the video there is a slight change in direction of the vehicle. In my mind, with Lavoy realizing that his exiting from the road block has thwarted, he jump out to surrender, hands up.
"We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men" George Orwell
Beneath this Grumpy exterior beats the Heart of a Dashing Hero
Lancaster PA CTT CP NV CQBJanuary 30, 2016 at 9:44 am #24229
@cynikal: no, no,no. We are not doing that. Read the vision statement at the top of the forum.
The video is real.
Not on this forum.
And also, if Sam wants to play Intel analyst, as the only fish on a small pond, he needs to actually start doing impartial analysis, not this childlike emotional reponse, and unfathomable hosile dismissing of one witness account. He is done here. For those of you who like to read multiple forums and post back here, not from Sam any more, it’s not welcome.
Sam Culper & OathKeeper (i.e. national level Stewie) BS is not welcome on this forum. This forum is for rational discusion. Not super secret conspiracy theories.January 30, 2016 at 2:38 pm #24238va181Participant
The Legitimacy of the Liberty movement just continues to be further eroded…January 30, 2016 at 3:06 pm #24239
we someone to bring it all together,a legitamite persons w/ Mil exp prefered to train,standardize and be able to think on their feet.no rabble rousers or dudes w/ stolen valor issues.January 30, 2016 at 7:54 pm #24240
This update added to the blog post:
Update, added 19:48 1/30/2016, by the MVT G2 Shop:
As several have pointed out, there are numerous aspects to this video that are missing in order to conduct a full and proper analysis of the situation. However, some additional observations on the limited data are below:
The initial stop: Without dashcam or bodycam it is hard to observe what exactly is going on and what led to Finicum’s departure. What can be seen is that both passenger and driver have their arms extended out of the windows and appear to be cooperative and surrendering. It was reported that a shot was fired at the passenger which led to the “run.” Although there is clear LEO activity and their weapons are trained on the vehicle and the passengers we cannot confirm if a shot was or was not fired by the LEO with the limited data provided.
(Note: FBI claimed at a news conference that, obscured by trees, Ryan Payne actually exited the vehicle and was taken into custody. This cannot be seen at all in the video).
The poorly positioned “Roadblock” but strategically placed “ambush point”: It is clear that Finicum began braking at his first possible visual of the roadblock and did not release the brake until after he veered off the road. On the video they had less than 3 seconds from their first visual of the roadblock to brake prior to inevitable impact. There are other variables, such as vehicle weight, occupancy, road conditions, speed etc. that could be calculated into this analysis, but typically it is accepted that a small sized car actually takes over 4.6 seconds to come to a complete stop in good weather and road conditions and over 10.6 seconds to stop in other less favorable conditions not including ice. Taking this into account we would assess that Finicum had no other choice but to veer off the road simply to avoid collision in the 3 seconds he had to take action in a heavy truck with passengers. He again appears to veer further to actively avoid the LEO that jumps out in front of his vehicle.
Additionally the two trucks they used for the “ambush”: A grey/white truck with front lights on and a black truck with its lights off on a black top road with a snowy background. Neither truck having any other red/blue lights or even hazard lights flashing to the front. The third vehicle in the rear has two obscured blue and red lights flashing towards the back but would not have been easily seen by the driver of any vehicle approaching. These factors would have actually made the roadblock extremely difficult to see.
(Note: there are very few, if any ‘blue lights’ on the vehicles, except visible to the rear. It is customary for law enforcement to have blinding blue lights on the time anytime they are stopping anyone at the side of the road, or for any reason – many of you will have been blinded by these excessive displays of blue lights. How did Finicum even know that he was running into a law enforcement roadblock?)
There is an oddity starting at around 11:10. There is an agent in a black top who comes from the front of the roadblock, around to the left side of the screen, and comes to stand behind the agents who are sheltering behind the rear roadblock vehicle, weapons trained on Finicum’s truck. . He appears to be gesturing at the aircraft to back away. In response to this, at 11:40, the screen jumps back to a longer distance shot of the roadblock. What are the agents doing at this time? Why does he gesture the aircraft to back off? At 11:47 the aircraft is further on the circuit and the shot zooms in again. The man in the black top appears to be waving again and perhaps coordinating the agents, a couple of who are steeping out round the back of the vehicles to aim/engage Finicum’s truck. At 12;09 as you are able to see through the gap in the trees, you can see either lethal or non-lethal impacts into or behind the windshield. Did he want to video to back off so they could open fire?
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