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Bad Advice: Here is the Problem

Home Forums The Armory – Gear and Equipment Load Bearing Equipment Bad Advice: Here is the Problem

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  • #46593
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Not so long after my MY MOST RECENT GEAR POST went up on the blog (Gear: The MVT Lite Fight Concept) and re-posted on WRSA / Survivalblog, we get the following from Mason Dixon Tactical:

    A Repost of “The Fighting/Survival Load for Mounted and Dismounted Operations” With A UW Gear Eval.

    Clearly I have given it more attention than I think it deserves by linking it here. An example:

    Dodge came to the VTC to help out on the first Combat Patrol Course. I have seen him in his gear. I know the weight of even the double LBE vest he wears with the .308 ammo for his rifle.

    Here are some what I consider to be pointed remarks at the end of his post (it’s a bit of a pattern): (bold mine):

    Please keep something in mind, This is my way of doing it. I’ve been using load bearing gear for a little while now (over three decades), and have found something that works for me, and have been using this specific system (variations of this for decades) for nine years now. These are just some thoughts I had on load bearing equipment, from a users perspective, not a Modern Warfare 3 tacticool theorist.

    I don’t claim to know it all, but what I do know is what I am planning for and have been for about 36 years. My experience is not only from many years in different types of infantry units (higher and lower tier), but being able to apply those lessons to things I have done during my lifetime (farming being one of them). There are many people out there giving advice without any experience other than being prior service, and while that is helpful, it is not very practical from a Survivalist stand point. Ask yourself, are you an infantryman, or are you a Survivalist. The difference is drastic in some instances.

    I have my gear set up to use for four basic scenarios. 1) I have to leave my residence on foot with only the supplies on my back with no guarantee of a place to go. It’s a heavy load and a collapsible game cart might be used as well. 2) I have to leave my residence in a vehicle, but due to the threat I will need to be moderately armed and ready for hostilities. 3) I have to operate out of a retreat, and will be on a moderate or heightened state of alert when outside the retreat performing tasks (imagine farming tasks and what you could wear while doing them). 4) I am operating as a member of a Neighborhood Protection Team and need to be able to perform as a guard post sentry and “Presence Patrol” member.

    Keep in mind that if someone is telling you your gear (mil issue gear that was used by soldiers of the past) is useless, you need to question their motivations. The biggest problem with ALICE gear these days is finding it at a good price. There’s not much you can’t do with some good old issued ALICE and mil issue MOLLE gear. You don’t need fancy, expensive not issue gear to get by, but if you do, I recommend you contact John Ammons at UW Gear to get some (BTW, he is also a Tactical Tailor dealer). Enjoy.

    This seems to point to some specific comments I have made in my post, such as you are specifically acting as an infantryman if you go out to do infantry stuff, and steering people away from hokey old school gear and impractical load-outs.

    This whole post form Dodge is anathema to me. It is noise and friction for the prepper / survivalist out there. It is doing nothing but harm. He is advocating wearing too much gear and carrying too much weight. His system is clunky and too complicated. Who knows if I am doing foot patrols in the morning and going by vehicle in the afternoon? Or both. I am supposed to change out all my gear? Hence the MVT Lite Fight Concept with the simple layered system.

    However, whether you have s secret affinity for ALICE gear or not, the whole point that is being missed is the need to only carry as much weight as will not hinder your maneuver under fire. You have to tie that in with intelligent mission planning and thought to logistics. You cannot carry everything – however much you carry, you will need a resupply. If you carry too much, you will not be able to maneuver and will die on the battlefield.

    Whatever your consider your ‘category’ to be, armed citizen, survivalist, prepper, etc, the point is that if you are to conduct infantry-style operations in defense of your hearth and home, you are in effect an infantryman and need to equip yourself intelligently to be able to perform that role.

    Stay away from heavy rucks and heavy gear!

    How many times.

    :scratch:

    #46594
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    P.S. there should be a re-enactors club for ‘survivalists’ stuck in the ’80s with woodland BDUs and ALICE battle belt setups, 20″ ARs. I know that applies to a few of you here on the forum (I know who I am thinking of – is it you? :whistle: ). All that I ask is that you listen to advice and act on it.

    #46596
    Profile photo of Darkrivers
    Darkrivers
    Participant

    :good:

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    If you're gonna fight, fight like you're the 3rd monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark... And Brother, it's starting to rain! James from Texas

    #46599
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I should also mention that the gear shown on the Dodge post is PRECISELY learned from light infantry operations where you are rucking in, which is where I approached things from when I first started MVT. That is not to say that was the gear I wore for all my career, but it was my start point for citizen unconventional warfare. Clearly, like all things at MVT, we adapt and evolve things to best suit our situation. With the MVT Lite Fight concept we are adapting both Old School and GWOT gear experiences to anticipated needs for an armed citizen. And do not forget that the infantryman CARRIES TOO MUCH. Thus, to be truly lite infantry, and to maneuver under fire you need to adapt that load/gear accordingly.

    That Matt from Oklahoma guy on SB was the same, dismissing the MVT Concept in favor of steel plates and ALICE load bearing equipment. These are ignorant fools to put it lightly, who have no place having a voice regarding tactical concepts, but the internet gives it to them.

    #46602
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    I wonder what that load actually weighs.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #46608
    Profile photo of Jake
    Weber
    Participant

    Part of the problem is that if the prepper ever has to actually bug out on foot with a 70lb ruck sack, they are going to quickly realize that they have too much weight in that pack and will be quickly dumping all of their “two is one, one is none” crap. Forget about even maneuvering under fire (which most don’t even understand how to do that) with that much weight. It just makes me think, unfortunately, that your posts on SB fell on mostly deaf ears especially after reading the comments.

    My mom said I could be anything I wanted to be when I grew up. So I chose to be a man.

    #46609
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    Most of this is just not thinking things thru. As a citizen, in an event most likely you will be running concealed. Less likely is running tactical but we train for that. And if we do go tactical we are more likely to run area patrols that may require over night which does not call for a ruck. If you do have to run a mission at distance outside of your area, it will most likely be some form of vehicle movement. If we are running unconventional missions then your team will meet up somewhere, run mission and then disband quickly. Not ruck in any of these scenarios. The chance you will need to go on foot for more than 3 days , requiring a ruck is such a small chance of occuring. Unless you live in boonies in Alaska. But so many people and schools focus on the ruck.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #46610
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    Also have you ever seen a Taliban fighter humping a ruck? Our situation would be more like that than our military.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #46611
    Profile photo of Mike H
    Mike H
    Participant

    I’m in the process of adjusting my belt to the lite version. Also my packs/rucks are getting smaller with less content. Age. injuries, and better mobility are factors for me. I believe caching is the way to go…even it isn’t a perfect solution but you have to be able to “get off the x” and fight in your loadout.

    “That’s all what is left?? These aren’t men, they are devils!"

    Colonel Milan 30 April 1863 aftermath of the Battle of Camaron

    CRCD March '14, CP May '15
    CTT Dec. '15, CTT(Idaho) '17

    #46612
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Read that article earlier. My immediate thought was not even 30 years ago on my best days did I ever take that much stuff with me working the Rio. The only times it was even close to that was if we were going out for 2 or 3 days doing a cold camp and laying in at a crossing.

    We did use a certain USDA Mounted Inspector to cache water for us before we ever infiltrated an area for the cold camps. USDA Mounted Inspectors are also referred to as “Tick Riders” whose function is to patrol the Rio Grande River looking for wetback cattle from Mexico who are usually loaded with fever ticks.

    When we did go out, on routine stuff, I did use A.L.I.C.E gear. That was the best we had. The web belt held the pistol and holster, 2 spare mags for the pistol, 3 extra 30 rd. mags for the Steyr Aug, and 2 canteens of water. I also and old canvas ruck from some foreign army that I picked up for a couple of bucks. It held anywhere from 2 to 4 more canteens of water, first aid kit, an old ex-military wool blanket, a spare dark colored tee shirt, and maybe a snack.

    The blanket was good to sit on in the brush, it could be used on loose dirt areas to walk on to reduce our sign, and was great for draping over barbed wire fences to keep from getting snagged.

    I will still use the A.L.I.C.E. rig to carry the pistol, mags, IFAK, and 2 canteens, but the Versa rig has eliminated the ammo pouches. A camelback small backpack has replaced the old mil pack.

    Eventually, I will end up with the lite battle belt and retire the A.L.I.C.E. gear. But out here in the desert the extra water is crucial, so the canteens and camelback stay.

    #46613
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I wonder what that load actually weighs.

    Without the ruck I suspect he’s carrying around 35 lbs with just the LBE. The 8 M1A mags alone is about 16 lbs. Even with switching to an AR, the 12 he talks about only saves about 4 lbs.

    Most express a desire to wear a PC, even with the lightweight PC I am exploring, that’s another 11 lbs.

    So even without a ruck it’s getting pretty heavy.

    The weights giving are pretty darn close, but off the top of my head.

    #46614
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    As a citizen, in an event most likely you will be running concealed.

    I’m not a great believer in this. We are running concealed NOW. I say this because there are too many who visualize some sort of clandestine resistance, which I don’t think we are really planning here.

    What actual clothing you are wearing is a moot point and will depend on the situation. We get criticised for wearing camo in training but semsible heads know we will wear what is appropriate.

    I do think most operations / patrols will be relatively short term and able to be logistically supported by either home base or vehicles.

    But once you go to long guns you need the gear for that. That may be throwing a PC on over jeans and a plaid shirt. Buy it is the same gear as in the Lite Fight Concept.

    For example, depending on mission, as a contractor we were often dressed in civilian clothes but with long guns and PC. Grab bag in the vehicle. To go lower profile a large civilian shirt was worn unbuttoned over the PC. But it is still rifle gear and does no pass close inspection.

    This is also laughable when JC is painting guys like me as simply ‘prior service’ and him as an extra special survivalist, when as a paramilitary contractor there is a whole depth of additonal experience that he has not had as a line infantryman.

    #46616
    Profile photo of Books
    The Librarian
    Participant

    I don’t have a lot to say here on the forum. But I do hang out a lot and just listen and absorb. I think the MVT Lite Fight concept is spot on, and does a great job in dealing with the realities of the positions we find ourselves in.

    Dodge clearly fails the KISS principle, and I would also love to know how much all that crap weighs.

    Did anyone notice he stated that steel plates are OK? That’s the first thing I ditched, and boy am I glad I did. The difference is amazing.

    Max is right. Survivalists and preppers have a different mindset.

    Georgia - RS/CTT-8/16

    #46617
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Survivalists and preppers have a different mindset.

    I think it’s the have trained and have bought difference.

    I believe the more trained you are the less gear you need.

    Many are trying to buy preparedness, vice train for preparedness.

    #46618
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    People asking about hia gear weight: best I can tell you, when he came on that first CP class, he arrived after class started and humped his gear out from the parking lot to the pavilion. He came down that last hill with all that gear on doing baby steps and it looked like hard work. There is no way you can survive like that in combat.

    #46619
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    This is why MVT cannot ‘win’ and will always remain a niche operation. We are pushing back against too much ignorance, laziness.

    #46620
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    It’s an education process. You are fighting an uphill battle against various concepts, the lone wolf, the porch sitter who will pick them off at 500 yards, stuff like “Red Dawn” 1 & 2, the “back during my war in 19XX” stuff.

    But, I think you are making inroads and winning. If you weren’t, the other guys wouldn’t feel the need to answer your posts.

    I don’t think Rawles gives space to any “who hit John” out there. Keep up the good fight.

    #46622
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I like how he says “…don’t overload it.” then proceeds to overload it, lol. :wacko:

    #46624
    Profile photo of JustARandomGuy
    JustARandomGuy
    Participant

    I’m not going to sit here and armchair commando the guy (much…) because I respect everyone’s experience regardless of how relevant it may be, but I remember reading that post back in ’14 when it came out and immediately realizing there was way to much going on with his loadout.
    You could actually credit this (and a couple others that came out around the same time) as one of those formative articles that made me realize I was trying to carry to much stuff myself, and what kind of extra weight/gear penalty all the “2-is-1” stuff I had planned was going to cost.

    I wonder what that load actually weighs.

    If anyone goes to the original 2014 article also linked (at the bottom of the linked re-post article here) on JC’s website and scrolls down, the stated weight is 70lb, and there are more interesting explanatory pictures….

    That weight’s actually not that surprising- back when Mosby did his gear loadout post, IIRC he was running more than that- like 80-ish lbs. (although to put it bluntly, MG’s was less of a hash- he just had a bigger pack).

    …Keep in mind that if someone is telling you your gear (mil issue gear that was used by soldiers of the past) is useless, you need to question their motivations. The biggest problem with ALICE gear these days is finding it at a good price. There’s not much you can’t do with some good old issued ALICE and mil issue MOLLE gear….

    https://m.popkey.co/43a020/v059g.gif

    I swear to God…
    [rant deleted by myself, irrelevant to current audience]
    You know what, sure, there’s nothing “wrong” with Alice gear, or gear from the 1950’s, or 1940’s, and so forth.
    But all this hogwash about the “wonders” of outdated gear would go away if the people engaged would simply ask themselves why gear design has progressed from then to a point where our military currently does NOT send troops off to battle in said gear (or steel plates for that matter)….

    "Time come Kimosabe, when good men must wear masks."
    ~Tanto

    #46625
    Profile photo of Barry Subelsky
    Sam Brady
    Participant

    I cannot praise the MVT concept enough. I have humped a heavy rucksack in the mountains of Vietnam and I know that excess weight is truly an enemy in and of itself. No wonder the NVA and the VC out maneuvered us all the time. They literally ran with little or no kit and could move very quickly. Over time even a young man becomes exhausted.
    Much better experience patrolling with American Ranger Company. We went out for 4-6 days and carried very little beyond ammo, water and lite rations.
    I dont know JC Dodge or what his experience is, but I would venture to say he could not carry that load for any length of time. “Real Time” as in 6 weeks, not a weekend training session.
    I still use some ALICE gear myself but I dont over do it!

    #46627
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Dodge is saying on WRSA comments that his load is 120lb for rucking and 85lb otherwise.

    #46631
    Profile photo of Wild Bill
    wildbill
    Participant

    Dodge is saying on WRSA comments that his load is 120lb for rucking and 85lb otherwise.

    Good lord why :wacko: What in the world is so important to carry with you that you burden yourself like that? Seems to me he doesn’t seem to understand the concept of caches or staging supplies at your bug out retreat.

    Western North Carolina ― LRMC-1 Sept. 2017, CQBC May 2017, DCH March 2017, RS & CTT October. 2016, CTT 1511, LN 1

    “We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.” ― Archilochos

    “I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence..." - Gandhi

    #46632
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    I was guessing at least 100#. That’s hard on 18 year olds. That’s not for middle aged men. Work smarter, not harder.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #46633
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    What in the world is so important to carry with you that you burden yourself like that?

    MDT wrote:
    “That is the set up I discuss for a “Leavin and not comin back” scenario.”

    Even though that wasn’t clear to me in the article.

    Seems to me he doesn’t seem to understand the concept of caches or staging supplies at your bug out retreat.

    I agree with Wildbill on this important point.

    An alternative location, even if it is just a spot where you have stagged backup supplies for a primitive retreat option.

    Many plan to survive in place, but to put “all your eggs in one basket” defeats being prepared.

    If things have become so dire that “Leavin and not comin back” is the only option, I would consider mobility to be even more important than gear in such a desperate option.

    I’ve done 65 lbs for recreational long distance hiking, but the comparison is illegitimate for our purposes.

    The difference between a leisurely upright hike on a trail enjoying the view as a tourist and a desperate evasion “Post-Event” avoiding opposition with proper movement and noise discipline should be apparent to all but the most deluded.

    #46634
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I have a wife and 4 kids, including a toddler. What are we talking about here for bugging out and ‘leavin; and not coming back?’ Sounds like a single man fantasy to me. How am I going to fit gear for all of them in a ruck? If I have to bug out with my family on foot, and not planned with vehicles, it is a last ditch run for our lives. Then, mobility is vital. Including having to carry the kids at times. If we bug out, we are only going so far as the kids can go, and seeking shelter, waiting it out, or whatever. The woods out here are not a void, there are houses everywhere.

    #46636
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I understand what Dodge s doing, He claims the survivalist thing but he is just rolling out line infantry company rucking operations, with additional gear he would not have had back when he was serving, and no logistic resupply. Yes, we can carry huge rucks and go and establish a patrol base. I taught that to an extent when I first ran patrol class. I have discussed this at length – the why of the mission, the duration, the resupply operations.

    If you bug out ‘leavin but not coming back’; with a huge ruck, you will barely be able to evade an pursuers, and you will run out in a week anyway. If you plan that, better to have a remote base to bug out to with a cache, to sit it out at until the threat passes from the home. Or you have to move on.

    #46638
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    @Sam Brady
    I am reading a book called Matterhorn by Karl Marlantes. It’s a novel based on his experiences as a Marine infantry officer in the mountains up by the DMZ. I have read it several times and every time I am in awe of the vets that humped the jungle of Vietnam. My hats off to you sir.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #46640
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    “85lb otherwise?” – yeah OK. Bring him out to FOF and see how he fares with that. Lots of “dying” I think.

    #46642
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    Just noticed the Serpa holster in pic. :negative:

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #46645
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Here’s some more “straight from the horses mouth.” ;-)

    MDT wrote:
    The ruck will weigh anywhere from 50 to 70 depending on whether some whether dependent gear is included or not. The Load Bearing Vest/Harness will weigh anywhere from 40 to 70 depending on what survival supplies, caliber of weapon, and amount of ammo is carried. I train with 120 lbs (LBE and Ruck) for PT, but don’t plan on carrying that much weight. The 308 and 556 Swamp Fox rigs weigh around 12 or 13 lbs (4 twnety round 308 mags and 6 thirty round 556 mags weigh six pounds) the weight of the rig, the mags, an IFAK, a knife, and a strobe.

    Steroids? :unsure:

    Maybe? ;-)

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