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Civil Disobedience

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  • #17577
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    civil disobedience
    noun
    : refusal to obey laws as a way of forcing the government to do or change something
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civil%20disobedience

    Some excerpts from:
    Civil disobedience
    Written by: The Editors of Encyclopedia Britannica
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/119219/civil-disobedience

    “Civil disobedience is a symbolic or ritualistic violation of the law rather than a rejection of the system as a whole. The civil disobedient, finding legitimate avenues of change blocked or nonexistent, feels obligated by a higher, extralegal principle to break some specific law.”

    “The principle of civil disobedience has achieved some standing in international law through the war crime trials at Nürnberg after World War II, which affirmed the principle that an individual may, under certain circumstances, be held accountable for failure to break the laws of his country.”

    I’ve attached a PDF copy of Civil Disobedience By Henry David Thoreau which I highly recommend.
    http://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Thoreau/Civil%20Disobedience.pdf

    Here is a Wall Street Journal article “Regulation Run Amok—And How to Fight Back” dated May 11, 2015.
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/regulation-run-amokand-how-to-fight-back-1431099256

    From The Washington Post, The case for conservative civil disobedience.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2015/05/06/the-case-for-conservative-civil-disobedience/

    I am not going to recommend any course of action regarding specific acts of Civil Disobedience, this is up to the individual to decide based on his or her conscience.

    We have all seen the acts carried out by many recently in the name of the 2nd Amendment, from armed protest, blatant violation of laws at these protests, and failure to comply with various Laws such as in New York and Connecticut.

    I believe this to be something for consideration by each of us.

    Know what you may be getting yourself into before you act in order to avoid any ignorance of the price to be paid.

    #17579
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Great Link!!

    Thank you! :good:

    #17582
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous
    #17583
    Profile photo of D Close
    D Close
    Moderator

    Excellent topic. Thank you. See also Romans 13:1 for the counter-argument. Resistance is something some people have a hard time with, I think. Most of us are not habitual and intentional lawbreakers. Now, we haven’t much choice.

    The only easy day was yesterday

    #17584
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Interesting site and information A Freeman. :good:

    Will take some time to go over it all.

    I believe we are beginning to see this type of response and more will follow.

    It’s the next logical step in the fight for Rightful Liberty and a necessary one, we must truly exhaust all nonviolent options for us to have legitimacy in the quest for true Rightful Liberty.

    #17585
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    D Close wrote:
    “Excellent topic. Thank you. See also Romans 13:1 for the counter-argument. Resistance is something some people have a hard time with, I think. Most of us are not habitual and intentional lawbreakers. Now, we haven’t much choice.”

    Here is a column by Chuck Baldwin:

    “It seems that every time someone such as myself attempts to encourage our Christian brothers and sisters to resist an unconstitutional or otherwise reprehensible government policy, we hear the retort, “What about Romans Chapter 13? We Christians must submit to government. Any government. Read your Bible, and leave me alone.” Or words to that effect.

    No doubt, some who use this argument are sincere. They are only repeating what they have heard their pastor and other religious leaders say. On the other hand, let’s be honest enough to admit that some who use this argument are just plain lazy, apathetic, and indifferent. And Romans 13 is their escape from responsibility. I suspect this is the much larger group, by the way.

    Nevertheless, for the benefit of those who are sincere (but obviously misinformed), let’s briefly examine Romans Chapter 13. I quote Romans Chapter 13, verses 1 through 7, from the Authorized King James text:

    “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.”

    Do our Christian friends who use these verses to teach that we should not oppose President Bush or any other political leader really believe that civil magistrates have unlimited authority to do anything they want without opposition? I doubt whether they truly believe that.

    For example, what if our President decided to resurrect the old monarchal custom of Jus Primae Noctis (Law of First Night)? That was the old medieval custom when the king claimed the right to sleep with a subject’s bride on the first night of their marriage. Would our sincere Christian brethren sheepishly say, “Romans Chapter 13 says we must submit to the government”? I think not. And would any of us respect any man who would submit to such a law?

    So, there are limits to authority. A father has authority in his home, but does this give him power to abuse his wife and children? Of course not. An employer has authority on the job, but does this give him power to control the private lives of his employees? No. A pastor has overseer authority in the church, but does this give him power to tell employers in his church how to run their businesses? Of course not. All human authority is limited in nature. No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.)

    By the same token, a civil magistrate has authority in civil matters, but his authority is limited and defined. Observe that Romans Chapter 13 clearly limits the authority of civil government by strictly defining its purpose: “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil . . . For he is the minister of God to thee for good . . . for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”

    Notice that civil government must not be a “terror to good works.” It has no power or authority to terrorize good works or good people. God never gave it that authority. And any government that oversteps that divine boundary has no divine authority or protection.

    Civil government is a “minister of God to thee for good.” It is a not a minister of God for evil. Civil magistrates have a divine duty to “execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” They have no authority to execute wrath upon him that doeth good. None. Zilch. Zero. And anyone who says they do is lying. So, even in the midst of telling Christians to submit to civil authority, Romans Chapter 13 limits the power and reach of civil authority.

    Did Moses violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew? Did Elijah violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel? Did David violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul’s troops? Did Daniel violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king’s law to not pray audibly to God? Did the three Hebrew children violate God’s principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state? Did John the Baptist violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God’s principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Did Paul violate God’s principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

    Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God’s principle of submission to authority?

    So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority–even civil authority–is limited.

    Plus, Paul makes it clear that our submission to civil authority must be predicated on more than fear of governmental retaliation. Notice, he said, “Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.” Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just “because they said so.” It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government’s laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.

    Therefore, there are times when civil authority may need to be resisted. Either governmental abuse of power or the violation of conscience (or both) could precipitate civil disobedience. Of course, how and when we decide to resist civil authority is an entirely separate issue. And I will reserve that discussion for another time.

    Beyond that, we in the United States of America do not live under a monarchy. We have no king. There is no single governing official in this country. America’s “supreme Law” does not rest with any man or any group of men. America’s “supreme Law” does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the “supreme Law of the Land.” Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so.

    This means that in America the “higher powers” are not the men who occupy elected office, they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every citizen, including our elected officials, to obey the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, this is how Romans Chapter 13 reads to Americans:

    “Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God’s minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.”

    Dear Christian friend, the above is exactly the proper understanding of our responsibility to civil authority in these United States, as per the teaching of Romans Chapter 13.

    Furthermore, Christians, above all people, should desire that their elected representatives submit to the Constitution, because it is constitutional government that has done more to protect Christian liberty than any governing document ever devised by man. As I have noted before in this column (See: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2005/cbarchive_20050630.html ), Biblical principles form the foundation of all three of America’s founding documents: The Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.

    As a result, Christians in America (for the most part) have not had to face the painful decision to “obey God rather than men” and defy their civil authorities.

    The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore, and blatantly disobey, the “supreme Law of the Land,” the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

    Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13?

    © Chuck Baldwin”

    I don’t agree with Chuck Baldwin on many areas, but I believe he makes an accurate interpretation of Romans 13.

    He and his son Timothy Baldwin wrote a book called “Romans 13: The True Meaning of Submission,” I haven’t read it, but suspect it’s a good to counter those that use Romans 13 as an excuse.

    Here is the link to the books web site:
    http://romans13truth.com/

    My simplest argument to those that would subvert the meaning of Romans 13, is to point out that by following that interpretation.

    The very founding of our Republic would have been in violation of God’s Will and as such forfeiting any possibility of our being Blessed by God both in the past and present!

    God can not Bless a Nation built on the subversion of God’s Will.

    No there are three reasons for the misinterpretation of Romans 13.

    1. Ignorance

    2. Cowardice

    3. Treason

    Pretty simple really! :yes:

    #17587
    Profile photo of D Close
    D Close
    Moderator

    GWNS, that was exactly what I had hoped someone would post. Thank you.

    The only easy day was yesterday

    #17588
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Thanks GWNS and also for the article addressing Romans 13:1 that
    D Close mentions.

    Unquestioning, subservient submission to authority is a bad way to start – that always ends up in a worse place if history is a guide.

    One needs to consider carefully the legitimacy of the authority of the state over the individual, the social contract (which is now being heavily breached by Governments in most Western countries) and the extent, duration and revocation of the consent of the governed.

    “My country right or wrong” is a dangerous and unstable moral platform upon which to build a public polity.

    While values and ethics do have a major role to play – specific religious ideologies are not the sole repositories of such things. e.g. the previous thread on Stoicism – which has much to commend it.

    In terms of what is to be done, a good place to start is a solid understanding of “Systems Thinking”. It is essential knowledge for planning, making, and breaking, all kinds of stuff. (Even the ubiquitous OODA is just a mental model of a system – and can be broken.) :yes:

    #17595
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    There is a rebirth of an old idea developing regarding Civil Disobedience, in many ways it seems uniquely American.

    What is it?

    Armed Civil Disobedience!

    Many might think this is a new twist, but if we remember Lexington Green April 19, 1775 this was a perfect example of Armed Civil Disobedience.

    If the British had turned and gone back to Boston when confronted by Captain John Parker; not very likely, but the “Shot Heard Round the World” would have been saved for another day.

    What to date has been a stark contrast to the events at Lexington and let’s say the “Bundy Ranch” event, is the fact that Captain John Parker’s Militia was greatly outnumbered while the BLM and other LEO’s were the ones outnumbered in Nevada.

    It would not have taken much for a fight to take place on that day of April 12, 2014 (what’s the deal with April?).

    Obviously the stakes are quite high during any Armed Civil Disobedience event.

    What has been quite surprising is although there have been investigations into the events of April 12, 2014 by the FBI and other LEO’s, no public action has been taking.

    It would seem at this point that the Government is not willing to push the issue.

    Obviously this is an numbers game, as long as the LEO’s are out numbered they seem willing to show much restraint.

    I was also surprised at the number of hits a web search of Armed Civil Disobedience returns.

    It will be interesting to see what’s next.

    #17596
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    The LEOs may be showing restraint, but how long will the politicians? Lexington Green happened because someone goofed and pulled a trigger, the next Bundy stand-off, or the one after that, could result in the same situation and then things could get ugly fast.

    Back in 1775 the good guys were at least somewhat organized and had some leadership with a goal and plans. I don’t quite see that today. Maybe my clearence isn’t high enough or I don’t have a need to know.

    Interesting times we live in.

    #17597
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Andrew wrote:
    “The LEOs may be showing restraint, but how long will the politicians?”

    There are no absolutes and the restraint shown I believe has more to do with self preservation than a desire to avoid violence. Although there is also LEO’s that disagree with the methods and/or policies.

    The politicians will have difficulty pushing for action as long as numbers are perceived to be too large.

    I think this is the case with New York and Connecticut’s lack of dedicated attempt to enforce the new gun laws. Even if it could be done peaceably where do you put a 100,000 plus new “criminals?”

    Andrew wrote:
    “Back in 1775 the good guys were at least somewhat organized and had some leadership with a goal and plans. I don’t quite see that today.”

    Based on the “I will not Comply” events in Washington State it seems organizers have tried very hard to provide organized leadership, but as you know, all it will take is one shot.

    Anytime there is a gathering of Armed Citizens and Authorities it makes for a potential “powder keg” and like Lexington, it wouldn’t take much for it to blow.

    Any participation in Armed Civil Disobedience must be carefully chosen with the knowledge violence could happen.

    These are uncharted waters so to speak and it doesn’t get anymore “in your face” than Armed Civil Disobedience.

    “Interesting times we live in.” Indeed!

    #17599
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    GWNS, I can’t quote you on this stupid pad, but I agree with what you are saying about New York and Connecticut.

    RE: powder keg, it is not beyond the realm of possibility for TPTB to use an agent provocateur to ignite the spark. When they choose to.

    #17601
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Andrew wrote:
    “RE: powder keg, it is not beyond the realm of possibility for TPTB to use an agent provocateur to ignite the spark. When they choose to.”

    I agree that is a real possibility!

    There is a definite need for as many video recordings as possible at any such event and to keep an eye out for any suspicious behavior on all sides.

    Let’s face it resorting to Armed Civil Disobedience is just one step below a true Rebellion. It is right on the razors edge and dangerous in the extreme!

    It sends a potent message to TPTB, but will it be enough?

    I don’t pretend to have many answers, but I think the “Genie is out of the Bottle” and can’t be put back.

    Standard Civil Disobedience seems to lead to a riot type response that exceeds the response you would see at a real Baltimore Riot type event.

    The question remains whether it can truly help?

    If not, then what will happen if a fight broke out?

    Would it spread or would it simmer just below the surface until next time?

    It took over a year from Lexington to the Declaration of Independence and we don’t have anything approaching a consensus on any goals or even common ground as yet.

    Is there any option that leads to a reversal of current Government trends?

    Even if there isn’t a solution it would seem we must at least attempt to change things in order to maintain legitimacy.

    #17602
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    I honestly do not think things will get any better, because, imo, there are too many people out there who have no idea how the government is supposed to work. There are too many people who pay zero attention to current events, except possibly, at a local level, when those events impact them. There are too many people out there who are afflicted with “normalcy bias” and things won’t change, or if they do do change Uncle Sugar will fix it.Gives

    Imo, peaceful change will only come about when people can force the politicians to do the job, as intended, by the Constitution, and the lobbyists are taken completely out of the equation. What a the chances that will happen?

    Secession, dividing the country into different regions, comes up in some circles. If that happens, I do not think there is the proverbial snowball’s chance that it will work.

    I am very pessimistic, given the mood, portrayed in the media, about the state of race relations, in urban areas, and the incessant bleating for legalizing people who have zero allegiance to this country that things will turn out well in either the long or short term.

    Change? I suspect there will not be any change to restore what we were until after a period of unpleasantness, which will include things getting noisy, before people will wake up. Who knows?

    #17603
    Profile photo of Ralph Kramden
    HiDesertRat
    Participant

    I concur with Andrew.

    The Cloward-Pivens strategy is being fully implemented currently. Our ‘representatives’ have been purchased by the highest bidders (check the net worth of your representative upon entering the ‘hallowed halls’ vs now, all that gain from public salaries? I think not). The masses, for the most part, are walking zombies, not of my era, munching on human ribs, but currently they now are ‘plugged in’ to the propaganda machine, and I suspect their diet eventually will evolve from vegan to meat. Between the slow strangulation of the public education system, i.e. Common Core, attempting to obliterate critical thinking, to the insidious devaluation of our monetary system, keeping people struggling so much so, they do not or cannot lift their heads up to see what is really coming….until it is too late. What will be the result? Hmmmm……TPTB are getting the cattle cars ready. Past generation could emigrate to ???. Small world now, no place to go. Eventually it will come to a critical juncture, and soon. Realizing they have been abandoned, folks will come to the conclusion that they may not have to stand tall, but they do have to stand up. After that, comes what Yogi Berra alluded to, ‘the future ain’t what it used to be’.

    #17609
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Yea, a lot of this is going through the motions to maintain a certain degree of legitimacy or the moral high ground.

    I do believe it is important in the long run.

    Part of this is also buying time to train and organize.

    For example I believe we are better off today than we were before Max created this Forum.

    There isn’t time to train as many as I would like, however there maybe enough time to train a core group of people that can make a difference.

    I suspect true change will require a extreme event or collapse, then see what can be built from there.

    For a Secessionist move to succeed will require a greatly weakened Federal Government, such as after the extreme event or collapse. It is difficult to imagine success without such a precipitating event.

    It is possible that an attempt at Secession could ultimately lead to that weakened condition, but it would be very costly to the State or Region that attempted it.

    Something that helps me when examining the potential hardships that may come is the fact that for all the Government hype and power, bottom line is they do not have the manpower to accomplish their goals if met with resistance.

    Ultimately we will do what we can and see where it leads us!

    #17610
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Secession would be a disaster, imo. Each area would be weaker than before on many levels.

    I agree that an extreme event, where people are shocked out of their complacency is most likely what will be needed to generate change. Positive change, not the kind foisted on us by the current junta.

    Along with not having the required manpower I’m here to tell you the LEO community, overall, does not have the training MV does.

    Kicking in doors is one thing, knowing how to move and operate in the brush is a whole different breed of cat.

    #18051
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Here is a new article getting into Civil Disobedience.

    Is it Time for Civil Disobedience of Kludgeocratic Bureaucracy?By Michael Barone – June 2, 2015

    Excerpt:

    What is to be done? Citizens, says Murray, should be willing to violate laws that the ordinary person would instantly recognize as ridiculous. And deep-pocketed citizens should set up a Madison Fund, to subsidize their legal defense and pay their fines.

    Civil disobedience will stick in the craw of conservatives who revere law and order. Deep-pocketed donors may be repelled. And Murray admits that deciding what regulations civil disobeyers should disobey involves tricky judgment calls.

    But he argues that his project might not be entirely quixotic, because the nation has changed in ways not envisioned by the Progressives and New Dealers, and contrary to the predilections of the regulators at agencies like OSHA and EPA.

    The Progressives thought that the nation was becoming more uniform and that supposedly disinterested regulators could and should make it more so. Murray points out that the contrary is the case.

    The cultural uniformity that people remember from the post-World War II decades is the exception rather than the rule in American history. We were a religiously, ethnically and regionally diverse nation in James Madison’s time, Murray says, and we are once again. The uniformity temporarily imposed by shared wartime and postwar experiences is no more.

    In addition, the assumption that centralized regulators would have unique expertise has proven unfounded. Government bureaucracy is increasingly a kludgeocracy (a word coined by the liberal political scientist Steven Teles), mindlessly enforcing absurdly precise rules by threatening ruin upon anyone who resists.

    But regulators are actually thin on the ground, unequipped to deal with mass — and subsidized — civil disobedience. When a spotlight is shined on their tyrannical behavior, even courts will rebel.

    Case in point: In 2012, the Supreme Court in Sackett v. EPA ruled that regulators couldn’t impose a $75,000 per day fine until the agency, in its own good time, acted on a landowner’s challenge to its ruling that his landlocked two-thirds of an acre parcel was a wetland.

    At this point just these articles are a good start!

    The more people hear about the idea of Civil Disobedience the better, it will soon become almost mainstream to consider it.

    #18054
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    I have long considered that it is passed time for nationwide strikes. I don’t know which industry to target first or if something like clogging the Beltway and other major routes into and out of DC would be a start. How would you coordinate shutting down DC! New York, Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Denver. Maybe social media the way they do flashmobs.

    The problem is too many people still have their normalcy-bias, are too apathetic, or just flat couldn’t afford to lose a day or threes wages to participate.

    So far nothing has actually gotten the attention of TPTB. What worries me is that things will deteriorate to the point where civil disobedience will be bypassed and things will just jump into violence and anarchy.

    JMO :unsure:

    #18067
    Profile photo of Thomas
    Thomas
    Participant

    “So far nothing has actually gotten the attention of TPTB.”

    And nothing will get their attention. Big Money does not care about your petty grievance. The game is well beyond civil disobedience.

    We all commit acts of civil disobedience every day. Seven mph over the speed limit is civil disobedience. Where I live 85 in a 65 mph zone is the norm. Civil disobedience is not the answer.

    Phase one moving toward phase two insurgency is where you would need to be in order to get noticed. Look at what the black panthers did in Chicago in the late 1960s and early 1970s where they established civil services such as ambulance service in certain neighborhoods and apply that city or county wide. Free ambulance service to a county where you have qualified EMTs and provide legitimate service for any number of activities that a govt or private business must charge for that service will quickly garner attention.

    Hit the money stream and you will get attention.

    Insurgency is an art and a science. It requires funding from sources other than the community receiving services. If you can get into that mindset and get the kind of resourcing needed to sustain the action, you will force reaction from TPTB. To be successful, you must remain five to six steps ahead of the local govt. This is truly dedicated action.

    #18111
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    The thing is we need something to build some version of camaraderie within the community.

    Various forms of minor civil disobedience that play to the various pet peeves we all have. By having a shared experience; even though in different political areas, could help bring about a shared purpose that doesn’t exist right now. This isn’t necessarily an “End Game Solution,” but a step in the right direction.

    Since at this time most of us are having difficulty forming even small groups. The idea of providing alternative offerings to traditional Government services would seem a step too far at this time.

    What worries me is that things will deteriorate to the point where civil disobedience will be bypassed and things will just jump into violence and anarchy.

    It isn’t too difficult to imagine a “Bundy Ranch” event leading to a Black Swan situation. So your concern is a valid one in my opinion and I suspect regardless of preparation things will happen with little real warning despite our best efforts.

    Without something to provide direction and focus we risk the real possibility of replacing one tyranny for another that’s worse.

    #34633
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Giving the current circumstances politically, this is worth another look IMHO.

    #34661
    Profile photo of vajason
    eggleston
    Participant

    This election has revealed to all , the complete corruption of our “National” leaders . Most of us already knew of this corruption . How will America react ? I suspect with a sigh at best. How much B.S. will America accept, is there a “LINE” that can not be crossed ? Appears that politicians can buy our American Honor with a middle class lifestyle. Civil disobedience may be a good start. How about a “separatist” movement ? Not a secessionist movement . Which would require a state legislature support. Would not ask permission ,just do it. Ukraine style minus Putin although outside support would be accepted . Any stomach in America for such a effort ?

    #34672
    Profile photo of Jake
    Weber
    Participant

    This election has revealed to all , the complete corruption of our “National” leaders . Most of us already knew of this corruption . How will America react ? I suspect with a sigh at best. How much B.S. will America accept, is there a “LINE” that can not be crossed ? Appears that politicians can buy our American Honor with a middle class lifestyle. Civil disobedience may be a good start. How about a “separatist” movement ? Not a secessionist movement . Which would require a state legislature support. Would not ask permission ,just do it. Ukraine style minus Putin although outside support would be accepted . Any stomach in America for such a effort ?

    Nah. No way. That would require work and sacrifice. I can’t imagine too many situations that would get a majority of the lazy fat-assed Americans off their asses and stand up against the Leviathan. Unfortunately, “We the People” do not know or realize how much power they actually wield. The system is corrupt to the core but it could be changed if enough people would be willing to take action. I think people just don’t even want to bother as long as they have their cable TV, X-Box, and Mainstream Media hard wired into their brains, thinking for them. The government is like the Matrix. Everyone is plugged in except a few people brave enough to unplug.

    My mom said I could be anything I wanted to be when I grew up. So I chose to be a man.

    #34695
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    How about a “separatist” movement ?

    I don’t discourage anyone or group that wants to give it a try.

    …get a majority…

    We don’t need a majority, as much as 60% of the population is not a factor. They will go with the flow with varying degrees of complaint and support for and against Socialism and Freedom.

    I see no scenario where we solve this without a fight. I hope I am wrong.

    The system is broken beyond repair and it’s only a matter of when, not if, it will collapse.

    Financially alone it can no longer be fixed. If we made the necessary budget cuts it would result in violence, do nothing and it will collapse resulting in violence.

    I advocate considering Civil Disobedience as a logical precursor in an attempt to keep the moral high ground, but doubt Government will be willing to back down.

    So at some point whether planned or by accident a confrontation will take place.

    Hypothetical worse case, a relatively intact Socialist Regime comes violently against those that support Rightful Liberty.

    Best case a “Black Swan” event weakens government leading to unrest, giving a somewhat smaller “Goliath” to slay.

    Additionally I believe such collapse will lead to significantly higher losses in the Socialist Left population without a Federal safety net to support them.

    This will alter the political landscape among the survivors, who will have far less Socialist leanings then are currently present.

    The following isn’t directed at any particular commenter.

    Complaining about the irrelevant people; my above 60% group, doesn’t help our situation.

    I could care less what their current distraction is, they will realize their mistakes soon enough. ;-)

    #34700
    Profile photo of Thomas
    Thomas
    Participant

    I don’t know that there will be any moral high ground. The globalist oligarchs and their leftist minions think they have the situation in hand and that we will do as told because we tend to follow the rules.

    Turning the situation around on these people will produce a real shock for them. The foot soldiers for left are the inner city EBT card using mob that has been raised on violence and hatred. That won’t be an easy group to control once they slip the leash and the mouthy occupy crowd will likely find that they are easy targets for this bunch. We must real vigilant and be ready to defend hearth and kin.

    We have been in the slow grind for 40 years. The pace seems to be picking up. How long will it take for the wheels to come off with a broken down old hag at the wheel?

    #34702
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I don’t know that there will be any moral high ground.

    It’s a relative thing related particularly to being able to say I exhausted all avenues.

    …that we will do as told because we tend to follow the rules.

    I think those days are truly coming to an end.

    A Socialist win in November will provide a perfect opportunity for Civil Disobedience in many areas of concern.

    The recent Wikileaks and FBI document release provide me with more than adequate proof to morally justify…

    “Civil disobedience is a symbolic or ritualistic violation of the law rather than a rejection of the system as a whole. The civil disobedient, finding legitimate avenues of change blocked or nonexistent, feels obligated by a higher, extralegal principle to break some specific law.”

    …many nonviolent actions.

    #34703
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Armed Civil Disobedience in movies! ;-)

    #34710
    Profile photo of TC
    TC
    Participant

    Those leftist minions have played a superior game. They’ve had over a century’s worth of propaganda, sophistry, infiltrating academia, public schooling, media/journalism, cultural engineering, false flags, problem reaction solution, and other tricks. It’s institutionalized sociopathy that exploits every backdoor in the human mind. They’re like some runaway artificial intelligence trying to take over the planet.

    Well, I believe that as long as internet, print, television, radio, and phones still exist, then pro-liberty information warfare is important. Not just making info available, but pushing viral media and exposés that influence public opinion. That’s straight out of the liberal playbook except pushing truth instead of lies. You saw what just a couple shooting vids did for the BLM movement. Acts of civil disobedience should be force-multiplied through proper viral framing/presentation.

    SE Florida ☆ CQBC 2017 ☆ CTT/DA 2017 ☆ CLC 2018

    #34712
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I don’t know that there will be any moral high ground. The globalist oligarchs and their leftist minions think they have the situation in hand and that we will do as told because we tend to follow the rules.

    I don’t think “WE” minions are a factor at this point. The real fight now is not between the minions and their masters. We are rapidly building to a horrific war of the Oligarchs.

    More specifically a war between the “Old World” Oligarchy’s and the “New World” (Read as post WW II) Oligarchy’s. When giants fight, the smart move is to get the hell out of their way. This coming fight will be for all the power, one winner…….but maybe the destruction will be so horrific, there will be, no winners, just a few isolated pockets of dissociated Edens.

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