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Close Quarters Battle Class

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This topic contains 24 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of DiznNC DiznNC 2 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #39249
    Profile photo of Jonny3X
    John3X
    Participant

    As the Primary Instructor of CQBC I would like to start an open discussion on what the forum members and future students are expecting and what styles or techniques they would like to see taught during the course of instruction. I would also like to know of what you all expect from the course once completed.

    ** Please Note that the course and its procedure have already been planned and verified, however in the spirit of never accepting DOGMA and that everything can always be improved I would like to explore your and the groups ideas

    -John3X

    #39252
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Great!!

    I’m a klutz, so the gross motor works best for me. Having done aikido, Gracie grappling, arnis, and hodge-podge, I decided to go with American Combatives (John Kary) as it was based off of WWII OSS/SOE from Fairbairn and Applegate.

    I have little hand-eye coordination and am a penguin in my motions. So gross motor worked best for me, but always open to learning/trying new……

    I look forward to it.

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #39262
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    First time into a live fire shoot house, there was a decent adrenaline dump – for me, intense focus but tunnel vision (def not good in CQB enviro). Projecting an even greater one if family safety was at stake.

    Are there any techniques for managing the effects? Can you train to control it?

    #39263
    Profile photo of Robert
    Robert
    Participant

    First time into a live fire shoot house, there was a decent adrenaline dump – for me, intense focus but tunnel vision (def not good in CQB enviro). Projecting an even greater one if family safety was at stake.

    Are there any techniques for managing the effects? Can you train to control it?

    Breathe, I heard it helps. Seriously, good tactical breathing helps tunnel vision, helps slow the heart down and calm the psyche.

    www.jrhenterprises.com
    RMP, TC3, NODF, CRCD 6/14, CP 9/14. NODF, Land Nav, 6/15. Rifleman Challenge 9/15- Vanguard. FOFtactics 3/16, 10/16, 11/16, 6/17,11/17 CTT, 6/15, 11/16, , LRMC-1 9/17 GA Mobile CTT and DA 10/16, GA mobile DCH 3/18, HEAT1 3/18 Alum weekend 8/18, Opfor CLC 10/18, DA 11/18 CQBC 12/18

    #39264
    Profile photo of Robert
    Robert
    Participant

    Back to the original question-

    John is a been there done it kind of guy and knows his stuff. Not at all surprised class sold out quickly!!! I have to sign up quick when the next one is listed.

    www.jrhenterprises.com
    RMP, TC3, NODF, CRCD 6/14, CP 9/14. NODF, Land Nav, 6/15. Rifleman Challenge 9/15- Vanguard. FOFtactics 3/16, 10/16, 11/16, 6/17,11/17 CTT, 6/15, 11/16, , LRMC-1 9/17 GA Mobile CTT and DA 10/16, GA mobile DCH 3/18, HEAT1 3/18 Alum weekend 8/18, Opfor CLC 10/18, DA 11/18 CQBC 12/18

    #39267
    Profile photo of Roadkill
    Roadkill
    Participant

    Breathing like Robert says helps. The issue is if you know something is coming and you feel the adrenaline dump coming that’s the time to combat breath. Like you hear a bump in the night your acquiring your firearm be breathing, you know, the four square four second kind. If we’re caught off guard we have the freeze startle response, at that point the tendency is to hold your breath, that’s not good. We need to keep breathing. How can we overcome that; through stress inoculation training. I would say like John will be teaching in cqpc. Basically your training your system to think it’s normal to be in that cqpc situation so as to attenuate the startle response.
    There is a great book called, Let Every Breath, by Vladimir Vasiliev, former Russian spec ops, that teaches breathing for the warrior. It’s worth the read.

    RS/CTT Nov 16
    HEAT1 Aug18

    #39269
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Breathe, I heard it helps. Seriously, good tactical breathing helps tunnel vision, helps slow the heart down and calm the psyche.

    In clinic, for those suspected of having panic attacks, we try to induce a panic attack by having the patient hyperventilate for 1 minute. Be cautious (if you choose to try) – many who say won’t/can’t happen, experience a panic attack. We then teach them how to prevent it in the future by controlling their breathing – here it is called combat breathing, there we call it 4-count breathing – its the same. Many are able to control, some need meds……

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #39270
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    I don’t know what I don’t know so will have the faith that y’all have developed an appropriate curriculum.

    What I hope to take away is similar to the CTT progression of buddy pairs then team actions BUT considering that the reality is that we may have to do some of this as individuals, single man tactics would be nice to have.

    #39289
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    Breathe, I heard it helps. Seriously, good tactical breathing helps tunnel vision, helps slow the heart down and calm the psyche.

    This is the whole f-ing problem with the “tactical crowd”. Everyone thinks they know everything and gets smart ass. Well no shit sherlock – if you can see the threat coming and do your “tactical breathing” exercises in advance – you’re some regular operator. MY question – if not clear enough – was can you innoculate against it?

    Why is this relevant to CQB? Because you might not F-ing be in an offensive operation. You might be fighting in/out of or around your dwelling against a threat that just BANG showed up! You know, the civilian stuff I thought we’re training for. Hopefully any such class is not entirely offensive minded for this reason.

    Maybe there is nothing you can do to minimize the effect of adrenaline dump – that’s why I asked. But going into “tactical breathing” exercises AFTER a sudden threat presents itself isn’t going to save your life. When you’re about to go offensive, yeah I get it – you have an operational pause to get your breathing squared away.

    I’m gonna go startle my dog a few dozen times now. See how he responds. Maybe create a “shock therapy” lesson plan for all you heavy breathers. B-)

    #39292
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Not to sound smart-ass – the breathing thing works, and it only requires 2-3 “controlled” breaths to regain control. IOW, when the adrenalin dumps, and you go all ape-shit gross motor on the attacker, it’s usually over in less than 10 seconds (I have seen some figures of less than 3 seconds, can anyone verify??). NOW would be a good time to control breathe, regain control of your body (at least for complex motor skills, heart rate around 145) and do a quick visual for multiple attackers.

    IIRC, Christenson wrote an article back in the 90s regarding the physiology of the adrenaline dump…..let me look around and I’ll post

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #39294
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Well before too many of you hyperventilate. ;-)

    Be a little patient to see what Jonny3X has to say regarding this.

    This is the whole f-ing problem with the “tactical crowd”. Everyone thinks they know everything and gets smart ass.

    I didn’t read anything smart ass about above comments and I am familiar with their individual posting styles. It’s part of what I do.

    Getting back to your question.

    Are there any techniques for managing the effects? Can you train to control it?

    Yes and yes to varying degrees.

    Since this is his Thread and he is the Primary Instructor of CQBC mentioned, not to mention his cadre Bio…

    John is a 9 year US Army veteran with over 29 months deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq. He has extensive experience and expertise in small unit tactics, reconnaissance, CQM/CQB, and specializes in long range and unconventional marksmanship. He has been selected to represent two Division Marksmanship Teams nationally and internationally.

    John has led or served in numerous conventional, reconnaissance, and special forces units throughout his tours, being specifically recognized by 3 separate US Special Forces Operational Detachment Alpha Teams as well as advising numerous NATO Special Forces groups. He has also been recognized for valor being awarded the Bronze Star Medal for Valor. John is a dedicated and motivated instructor, using his knowledge and combat experience to personally connect with each student at MVT.

    …let’s see what Jonny3X has to say regarding this question.

    We also have some other Cadre more than sufficiently qualified to comment on this.

    #39296
    Profile photo of Barry Subelsky
    Sam Brady
    Participant

    Stress Inoculation=effective training in the basics, coupled with realistic sound CQB training. The more you do something correctly, the easier it becomes. IF you learn the basics and practice under realistic conditions you will be inoculated.

    #39299
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    I think Robert was being honest and not trying to smart ass anyone. The guy is involved in H2H combatives. When you get attacked, you get the dump. I can remember in some of the limited combative training I had that you really run out of gas quickly after a few seconds of anaerobic and really have to force yourself to break that reflex and get some air in you. I think Sam has it, the inoculation is really the only way.

    I had tunnel vision big time during my first CTT, less so the second and BUT in my first FoF, it came back a little and during the second FoF it was much easier to have a wider awareness. The zipping rounds from an unknown location really get your attention….

    #39361
    Profile photo of Jamison
    Jamison
    Participant

    So, for the startle response. Train on something simple to do to protect yourself, whether it’s H2H (a basic and effective protective block) or firearms (Get off the X) If you do this and train with enough, it will be something that you can do without thinking and you can train yourself to do that motion as part of the startle response.

    For the adrenaline dump, combat breathing/box breathing works really well. I find that for me a breathe in, hold, breathe out, hold, with a count of three for all works really well for me. Try it out, I’ve also known some people who use pyramid breathing, which is a hold after the inhale, but no hold after exhale. Both methods work, I don’t know if one’s more effective than the other, but if you use the pyramid style, it may give you better o2 intake because you don’t have the extra pause? Not really sure, maybe some day I will grab a pulse ox and test some stuff out.

    I also train to consciously brake my tunnel vision by looking around after an encounter. For example, if you’re clearing a room, engage your first target, and subsequent targets in your kill zone, then consciously look around the room/area. Doesn’t need to be a full 360, but the act of thinking about looking around will often times (for me) break that tunnel vision. Also, I found that playing paintball, or some other sort of 2 way range sport (UTM) will also really help with that, because the more you train to brake that tunnel vision, the better you get at it, that and when you get hit by something because you got too focused then you get some instant feedback.

    I’m by no means an expert in CQB, it’s one of those super perishable skills, that I haven’t done on a constant basis in a long time, but I’m familiar with a lot of the theories, and TTP’s from some time ago, I also stayed in a Holiday Inn last night, so there’s that…

    Also, “I hear breathing helps” was my first reaction to your question as well. I hope I was able to point you in a good direction.

    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter-accusations.

    Nulla fatere. Nega omnia. Accusatis calumniatorem. Demanda probationem.

    #39409
    Profile photo of Jonny3X
    John3X
    Participant

    Alright well that seemed to esculate rather quickly. First off sorry for my delayed response I’ve been stuck in transit for the past 3 days enroute to the joint readiness training center in louisannia.

    As for how to control adrenaline whether it be in an already hostile situation or in a situation that seems to be developing into that. The first step is training, in order to adequately train for any scenario it needs to be as realistic as possible, whether that be adding physical exhaustion or trying to trigger that adrenaline dump through an external stressor (ie. UTM ammo, peers and coaches evaulating, or suprise scenarios).

    Many of you mentioned breathing and that is a huge part of it, but also having the mental framework developed through training to either push through the fear, uncertainty, adrenaline neutralise the threat or have the tactical patience to seek temporary cover if available until you can regain control of yourself and the situation.

    Training is the key though, the more you work through complicated and realistic scenarios the more comfortable you will feel when a real word event presents itself. It builds the skills and confidence necessary to live and win during periods of extreme adversity.

    Once again I apologize to all of you that my repose took so long, but be easy on one another. We’re all here to help our fellow shooters attain the knowedge and skills to help us succeed on the range and to survive a potentially violent and lethal situation.

    – John3X

    #39411
    Profile photo of Jonny3X
    John3X
    Participant

    Please disregard all the spelling issues. This site isn’t working well with my phone at the moment. I thought I caught most of them but it turns out I absolutely did not.

    – John3X

    #39438
    Profile photo of Jonny3X
    John3X
    Participant

    @ wheelsee

    Gross motor skills with the exception of basic combat rifle manipulation are exactly what good effective CQB tactics and techniques consist of. I see guys trying to get to fancy all the time, and it only ends in heartache for them. Precise and methodic planning and execution of the fundamentals are what keep people alive. Once you have those down to a science then you can focus on more advanced situational techniques.

    #39439
    Profile photo of Jonny3X
    John3X
    Participant

    @ SeanT

    That’s exactly how I designed this program, it will be progressive just like CTT was. It is primarily focused to an element but portions of the class will be single man entries and clearances. There will also be defensive scenarios designated to stress a single individual in attempts to recreate a home invasion.

    – John3X

    #39451
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    Thank you. I am looking forward to being there.

    #39470
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    Appreciate the constructive responses :rose: All roads lead back to training. And putting more adrenaline inducing events in my life!

    #39472
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    You know, this reminds me of an incident right after 9-11. My buddy was in security in the Naval reserves and was activated for force protection work. He was up in LA for some bullshit deal, standing around with a bunch of state, local, and federal guys, when who walks by, but Arnold Schwarzenegger. So like the conversation stops, and the gubernator pauses, sniffs, and says: “I smell testosterone”.

    I don’t think anyone is here to bust on anyone else. If someone offers a comment I take it in the light of someone offering good advice not busting your chops. And I know that Robert personally is trying offer constructive advice to folks here, based on his past record.

    So hey, give each other the benefit of the doubt here.

    Or maybe Max will get some 16 oz gloves and we can smack the shit out of each other at the VTC instead of on line. I’m such a smart-ass, I know my card would be full!

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

    #39474
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    As to the OP, yeah I am extremely interested in learning the latest T,T,P’s of CQB. I am also interested in hearing what you might teach us to figure out how that might apply in our particular sit, such as violent home invasion, active shooter event, etc. Give us the tools to analyze our particular sit, figure out what skills are required, and develop our own training sustainment program at home.

    The key here, IMHO, as some have mentioned, is for us to finger out how this applies to us, as armed civilians. I mean yeah, that’s a very good question; how do you switch on and respond to being blind-sided with an attack, versus being a door kicker in a stack ready to go in. Valid point.

    So in essence, we may be starting “behind the ball” and reacting to movement versus initiating it. So yeah that’s probably something that needs to be worked on.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

    #39478
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Found some of the articles/books I was referencing above.

    Read “On Killing” by LTC David Grossman and Loren Christensen, 1995 (might as well read “On Combat” also, 2004)

    Grossman and Christensen (On Combat, 1995) discusses the physiological effects of stress – time, hearing, visual, etc.

    Read Bruce Siddle’s “Sharpening the Warrior’s Edge” 1995

    good for cold-weather activities……

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #39549
    Profile photo of Jonny3X
    John3X
    Participant

    @ DiznNC

    You brought up a bunch of great points and a portion of the class will be directed toward the civilian scenarios, risk management, home planning and reaction drills.

    The key with any kinetic situation, especially in an area where you having “home field advantage” (pun intended) is HAVING A PLAN!!!

    To further drill this point all students are more than welcome to bring a roughly drawn strip map of there homes layout if they are comfortable with it. Most likely after the second day of Class I will sit down and we can go over and I can add suggestions to your quick response plan.

    I have one for my house and have practiced it, reevaluated, and revamped it until I felt it was sufficient, I have also had trusted friends look it over to get an outside opinion so I dont get tunnel vision on my own plan.

    Once again this is completely optional but I am.more than willing to help.

    @ wheelsee

    I have read on killing and found it an exceptional read years ago, I also read about half of on combat but didn’t find it as entertaining an unfortunately didn’t finish it.

    Definitely worth looking into reading again, and I’ll have to check out the third book you mentioned.

    – John3X

    #39558
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    Hey cool this is very refreshing, as most classes in the industry are aimed at LE and if any qualified civilians are let in, they learn how to assault, not defend their homes. I think this would be a huge opportunity for you guys, to fill a training gap that has been sorely needed for a long time.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

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