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Concealed Carry and Your Employment

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  • #39063
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    How many hours in a week are you gone from your home in order to earn a living for you and your family? Chances are, this amount of time accounts for 75%+ of your total hours in public. Something that I have been giving much thought to, and have spoken with others about, is concealed carry and employment.

    Many employers are beginning to implement policies that specifically forbid firearms (even if left inside your vehicle). There are a select few states that protect employees from policies about things stowed in their vehicle, but they are in the minority. In general I commonly hear of four courses of action: 1) leave the house unarmed and take your chances 2) carry to/from work but leave the firearm in the vehicle 3) carry to work with concealment a top priority 4) carry nonlethal tools

    My questions to all of you is 1) how has your employer communicated (if at all) firearms/weapons policies and 2) what is your approach to everyday self defense during the work week?

    #39065
    Profile photo of Mike Q
    Mike Q
    Participant

    My employer doesn’t really have a policy. Our Far Left leaning office manager insists firearms are not allowed. However half of the guys carry anyways. We all use backpacks as our carry option. No one actually carries it on their person, however.

    There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it twice.

    CRM Sept. 2014, CTT 1505, CTT July 2015, RC-Rifleman 1502, CP Nov. 2015, FoF March 2016, CCW May 2016, FoF Oct. 2016, FoF Nov. 2016, CLC April 2017, FoF Nov. 2017, Alumni weekend Aug. 2018, CQB Dec. 2018

    #39066
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    Here is my view and what I do. It may not be what you would do. This is a very personal issue. And I am not suggesting this to anyone.
    I am not leaving the house unarmed. End of story. So if my employer does not allow CCW then I will either quit my job and find other employment elsewhere, or I just carry anyway. My view is I am not going to deploy my gun unless it is a life or death situation. And at that point, who cares what the policy is. Yes, I could be fired or disciplined if someone finds out. But I’ll take that chance.

    Right now I am the one that makes the policies so it’s not an issue. ;-) But I did this for years prior.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #39067
    Profile photo of Rowland
    Rowland
    Participant

    We have the typical “no gun” sign at the front door, and a small blurb in the handbook about “no guns, weapons, blah, blah”. I know a few of the guys still carry concealed at work and take their chances; I do not. My gun is left in the vehicle, state protected. I have some leeway in the “tools” I have with me. I always carry a knife…and most folks know and depend on me for it. I have a fixed blade out in the truck as well, and plenty of other “tools”.

    I’ve been there 11 years, and never without a large folding blade. A couple of silly people have made comments and mentioned concerns about someone having a weapon that big at work. Luckily, my bosses support my choices and dismiss the silly people.

    If someone wants to hassle you about any lethal or nonlethal measures, all they have to do is scream “hostile atmosphere” over and over until someone listens. Even if you get cleared, you’re still a “trouble maker”.

    Many of us are hunting mice while lions devour the land. -Leonard Ravenhill

    #39069
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Hmmm, Level 1 Trauma Center in a state where carrying is forbidden under penalty of law which could cost one’s professional license thereby losing the ability to support family. Not to mention having to go into a MRI room, yeah, that’ll rip whatever’s concealed right out in the open.

    This is when it’s best to know improvised weapons, including hands, and having the mindset to use them……maybe not the best scenario, but its what available

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #39072
    Profile photo of Thomas
    Thomas
    Participant

    My brain is my greatest and most dangerous weapon. I never ever leave home without it.

    My office is in a gun free zone where only villains can have firearms. I telework as much as possible and carry almost everywhere I go. The exceptions to that are places such as schools.

    I am never without non lethal tools.

    #39073
    Profile photo of FiremanEd
    Eddie
    Participant

    Someone please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that the US Supreme Court ruled that if you could legally be in possession of a firearm during your commute to and from work that your employer could not forbid you leaving it in your locked vehicle on their property.

    I cannot recite when or where I read that but I’m pretty sure I saw it a couple years ago.

    #39074
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Fortunately or unfortunately the only time this has been a issue was in my military career. :wacko:

    I hope this can be changed someday.

    #39075
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    I couldn’t find anything re SCOTUS but apparently 22 states have passed “bring your gun to work” laws (secured in vehicle in parking lots).

    Guns in the Parking Lot: Bringing them to the Workplace

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #39079
    Profile photo of Tom
    xsquidgator
    Participant

    I think Hurricane Katrina provides some insight. As a reminder, Katrina was a major hurricane that hit Louisiana back in 2005. I have been told that LA is/was a place where carry in a hospital is/was forbidden by state law. However, “they” knew this big hurricane was coming and they knew they’d need physicians/nurses/support staff at the hospitals for some number of days after the hit while things got back to normal. So medical people were arranged for to stay at hospitals for some number of days while things were brought back to normal, before the hurricane hit.

    I am *told* from people who were there that although state law wasn’t changed, and awful lot of the medical people staffing the hospitals, anticipating a breakdown in law an order (and they were right), on their own brought in concealed carry and other weapons with them while they kept the medical hospitals going afterwards. No one told them to, and they were breaking rules to do so, but pretty clearly what they did, while against the rules/law, was the right thing to do.

    I had a close friend who was in the WTC on 9/11/01, who got out. He told me a similar moral, in that if things get “weird” no one is going to tell you that, you have to figure it out for yourself and act accordingly. You may need to commit a property crime or something to survive, or to break your way out of some place that is suddenly a deadly place. I suppose it could be worse than that, a riot or worse, where other people are suddenly a danger to you who yesterday weren’t. You have to pay attention and decide correctly if the rules have changed. No one will tell you, or perhaps in Max’s words if I understand the post correctly, “there will not be theme music to the end of the world”.

    All that to say, if you think you might need a CCW piece someday and you don’t have total confidence that your .gov or whatever will protect you, you may want to consider that you’ll need to break current rules to survive. These are “big boy rules” though meaning you’ll have to face consequences if you’re discovered breaking them.

    CTT 10-2014, CTT 1504, RnG/CQB/FoF October 2016, 2017 Georgia CTT/DA, DCH 2018.

    #39083
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    This is going to depend on local and state laws. You need to do you research. Do not rely on internet legal advice.

    After that, as was said above, this is a very personal decision. No one can tell you the risk to take when it comes to providing for your family.

    Fortunately or unfortunately the only time this has been a issue was in my military career. :wacko:

    I hope this can be changed someday.

    I know the decision that I and others made on certain occasions. ;-)

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #39091
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    I think we all agree that there is no right answer. Even beyond state and local laws, like Top pointed out, is the actual nature of your work and the specific environment you’re in.

    I preface all this acknowledging the fact that humans are particular poor at accurately judging probabilities. Not critical to the discussion, but something that may be of some interest: When determining risk we need to be thinking what’s the probability of an event occurring, and what is it’s severity. It’s a common practice to take those two things and multiply them together to get a risk priority number (RPN) from which you can compare and contrast a list of risks and make an informed decision on which risks to mitigate given limited time and resources.

    Anyway, without going into every single detail, some things to think about:

    1) What is the risk the environment presents?

    During your movement to/from work, what areas do you pass through and what are there crime levels? What’s the volume of people in the areas you move through at the times that you commute? Do you stop anywhere on a routine basis? Everyone stops at a gas station pretty frequently- where do you stop? when do stop? what about the people you see when you’re there? During your commute, how much traffic and how many stoplights are there? It’s much easier to assault a slow or non-moving vehicle.

    Next, let’s think about our work environments themselves. Do you work in a place that is accessible to the public? What, if any, security measures are there for non-employee threats? On the one end of the spectrum is retail- everyone is allowed in the store and in most cases there is zero security. On the other end of the spectrum there are employers with physical barriers, checkpoints, armed guards, etc. Given the nature of your work, what’s the risk level of encountering deadly force? What’s the most likely reason for someone to be attacking at your place of employment? I think statistically the most common cause is for personal reasons (someone is mad at someone they know and decide to attack them at work). Another common motive is for personal gain, ie robbery. I once met a doctor who was working at an urgent care facility in an urban area. He had mentioned that he routinely encounters drug-seeking patients and has been verbally threatened by them. He felt his risk was high.

    There are thousands of other questions here…

    2) How permissive is the environment to concealed carry?

    This can probably be broken down into two avenues: probability of someone recognizing you are armed and the consequences if you were recognized.

    How difficult is it in your line of work to remain armed and undetected? For some, the wardrobe requirements could make it nearly impossible. For others, they might have to pass through a metal detector. For others yet, they might be routinely in physical contact with others. Again, there are hundreds of things that could make it more or less likely for you to “be made”.

    Next, what are the consequences (read: severity) if it is discovered you are armed. For some it could be completely irrelevant. For others it could mean felony charges, termination and a forced career change. For others, like say a prison guard, it could mean multiple deaths.

    I have perhaps only scratched the surface of this topic. It’s probably a deep enough topic that someone (more qualified than I) could write an entire book on if they wanted to. Nevertheless, I hope I’ve given some of you food for thought.

    #39092
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    I work for myself and my office is at home. Concealed is concealed when I go out.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #39094
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    JM,

    Great thoughts!!

    Working medical, I am utterly amazed at the number of my colleagues who wear scrubs in public – SCREAMS medical.

    To carry your post further –

    What do you wear that tells everyone what you do or what cautions are needed in approaching?? Do you wear a business suit, a uniform, scrubs, street clothes?? Exercise – the next time you’re at the mall, look at people and figure their occupation by their clothes, then try to determine their net worth. Does your attire and accessories (purses, brief cases, packs) tell everyone what you do, what your general income level is?? Does your attention (or lack of) to those around you invite someone close or let them know you know they’re there??

    Go to an inner city hospital and people watch. Identify the hospital workers, the doctors, EMS/Fire, police, patients, families, and homeless. Watch for the interpersonal actions. Can you identify the alcoholic, the drug abuser, the homeless?? (Not to infer negativity here)

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #39095
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    Completely off topic.
    wheelsee, just an observation/question – Why did you add the note about negativity? Why would that be negative? It is what it is. I catch myself doing it sometimes on benign subjects like that. It just shows how the liberal/progressive agenda has influenced our lives. There was a time when all three of those would have been called bums and nobody would have thought twice about it…well, except the alcoholic, the drug abuser and the homeless. Now, everybody is a winner.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #39097
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    I work on Federal Property so there are definitely rules.
    Law

    check out subsection D3..

    A few times over the years I have tried to find any case law that referenced this exception as ‘other lawful purposes’ is very broad. One could argue an individual’s right to self defense is lawful.

    No such luck but maybe an Attorney who has a good search system can find something.

    There is also an Agency regulation prohibiting weapons on/in Agency property.

    Inside, my greatest threat is an employee that goes off the rails.

    There is also the possibility of a planned assault by way of a vendor visit or similar. There is limited physical security that isolates some areas from this as well.

    I have a commute though so anything on the way to/from becomes my greatest risk.

    #39098
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Completely off topic.
    wheelsee, just an observation/question – Why did you add the note about negativity? Why would that be negative? It is what it is.

    Yep, PC run amuck…….the medical field (at least in my area) has become MUCH more PC. so I’ll call it habit now……. :unsure:

    Though it is refreshing to be able to call a spade a spade…..thanks for pointing out how insidious PC can be….. ;-)

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #39099
    Profile photo of MVT Gear OEM
    MVT Gear OEM
    Participant

    Place I work has a policy about concealed carry, So I just open carry. ;-)

    #39142
    Profile photo of Robbie
    kadelic
    Participant

    Great thread.

    I live in Texas and have conceal carried everyday without fail for the past 5-6 years. Texas is one of the states that allows you to store your handgun in your vehicle in your employers parking lot. I’ve worked as a CNC machinist since the late 90s. My current and previous employer have a general no weapons policy in their employee handbooks, including statements involving the parking lot. At my previous job the parking lot was right of the Interstate and was easily accessed by the public. At that place I secured my CCW in a lockbox tethered under the passenger seat during my shift. My current job is in an industrial area a few blocks from main thoroughfares, and has a security gate. The gate can be opened with your employee badge, or it can be buzzed open from the shipping or reception desk. It’s a relatively small machine shop with about 8 office staff, 6 support staff, 12 machinists, and a small rubber/mold shop. At this place I stow my CCW in my center console instead of locking it up.

    My typical EDC handgun is an MP Shield 9mm with two spare mags on my belt. Starting a few months before the recent election, I started toting and EDC bag with a FS MP 9mm and 4 spare mags, along with an IWB and OWB holster for it, in case I got into a situation where I had to leave my vehicle in a sketchy situation. I left this bag in the trunk of my car at work for the first couple weeks but started bringing it inside with me and stowing it in the desk drawer at my work station. I’m not really concerned about being busted, if anything I have a little peace of mind that if some crazy shit went down I wouldn’t have to access my car to arm myself. Of course if some crazy shit went down when I was taking a dump I might be SOL, but I’ve gone through that scenario mentally and have a makeshi(f)t plan.

    Speaking of being mentally prepared, with or without access to a firearm, always be aware of concealment vs cover and means of escape in your work environment. Not that I have to tell any of y’all that. B-)

    #39152
    Profile photo of RonW
    farmer
    Participant

    Speaking of being mentally prepared, with or without access to a firearm, always be aware of concealment vs cover and means of escape in your work environment. Not that I have to tell any of y’all that.

    Keep saying it. I view it as positive reinforcement.

    farmer

    RonW

    #39155
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I have a small farm, so I could run around with a PC and my AR if I want to. B-)

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