December 16, 2016 at 9:36 am #38292MaxKeymaster
I’m going to out a few thoughts down. My mind has been on this topic since our discussion over the past couple of days in the ‘Training through Competition’ thread.
Now, there is an inherent danger in what I am going to say, because it is nuanced and any discussion that can be PERCEIVED to be about gun rights is like Pavlov’s dog bell to some people. I’ll have guys with no reading comprehension skills, or original thought, frothing at the mouth saying that I am now a gun control Nazi or similar.
I’ll say straight up that that is not what this comment is about. I am not advocating gun control. What I am going to do is voice some thoughts on ‘firearms ownership’ and training. I am not advocating any sort of solution, other than everyone in the country comes to train at MVT!
All I am going to do is give voice to some thoughts on the state of things. Now, all that said in the intro, if you still come at me about gun rights, you are a fucking idiot.
I have seen the word ‘tactical derp’ bandied around. I get the meaning but it isn’t even a real word. It expresses what I mean. Let’s look at perceptions from my point of view: I grew up a Brit until I naturalized here in my late 30’s. Grew up in an army family and joined the UK Army. No private gun possession in the UK, to speak of (except some farm and hunting shotguns etc), and having a gun at home was never a consideration – because that is the culture.
What that meant to me was that at all times, gun possession and use was always within a professional trained environment. You got your weapons out of the armory and went training, or on operations. You also had relatively standard weapons, you didn’t have a safe at home with a whole bunch you had hobby built on a whim.
(Reminder: this is not a discussion about gun laws in the UK, this is just stating a fact).
Now, in the States, anyone can own pretty much anything. People have firearms for any number of reasons. People can own or build whatever the fuck they want, and there is so much choice it becomes ludicrous. Firearms are a fashion statement, a cool factor, whatever, in many areas. Dudes with beards and tattoos posing as the operators they never were, half naked chicks posing with rifles, YouTube channels. It’s a fucking industry.
Am I saying there is anything wrong with that? No. ‘Cuz freedom, right?
What is does mean however, is that in the majority of cases, there are no professional controls on safety, correct operating tactics and DERP reduction. Hence the ‘DERP.’ You have an overwhelming number of idiots out there, who are simply civilians with no formal training, going to schools (if they do), or competitions, that do not have the professional creds or knowledge to teach things right. Because anyway, who wants to sign up for tactical training? It’s hard, right?
So in the main, all this shite out there is merely gun-hobbyism. It has a root in self defense and branches out into hobbyism and sport, such as 3 gun, long range marksmanship and all that. That is why there is so much DERP out there.
Is there anything to be done about this? No. Any attempt to do so would amount to training controls which are both impractical and an infringement on liberty. My point isn’t to try and control others. My point is to simply be aware of this, and know how to separate the bullshit DERP tacticool shite from real, serious, professional training. Even places such as Tactical Response, which purportedly teach tactics, are simply shite. I have seen their videos and they have no idea what they are doing, or how to run a professional, safe, range. Amateurs playing at a professional’s game.
In a vast sea of untrained tactical DERP, places like MVT are a small boutique training business. There are relatively few people who have the balls to sign up for real professional tactical training. I have written about this before. Ego mainly. Fear of failure or looking a fool, because the ego cannot understand that MVT is a training experience and YOU WILL FAIL AT TIMES as part of the learning process, and it is expected and part of the growth.
The sheer freedom and access to firearms that we have is the reason why we have to put up with assholes / idiots from the internet trolling the shit out of everything. Because they are idiots who know nothing, but they have an uncontrollable ego that makes them feel they have something worthwhile to say. Given the proliferation of SWAT/CQB training across the market, vice the small availability of real light infantry training, is why there are idiots everywhere who think they can argue CQB. It’s a cool guy language that they learn and trot out, becasue it helps their ego, to feel part of that group. But they have no depth or operational experience, so if you challenge what they think they know, they lose their minds.
I joined Instagram, purely to use it as a marketing avenue. I hate it. Whenever I look at it, it is nothing but ‘cool’ shit with posing chicks and guys looking the part. It is easy to look the part of an ‘operator’ by buying the gear, going to the gym, growing the beard and getting the full sleeve tattoos. That is the current cool guy trend. I can see through it a mile off. “All the gear, no idea.” But people are suckered in.
That’s all I really wanted to say. Be careful out there, it is a vast sea of cool-guy bullshit. You have to try and spot the quality. If you are reading this you at least had the sense the gravitate towards MVT and join the forum.December 16, 2016 at 10:36 am #38296Joe (G.W.N.S.)Moderator
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Someone with limited talent or ability is considered special by those having no talent or ability.
I think this factors into this.December 16, 2016 at 11:54 am #38301DiznNCParticipant
Yes, that’s the consequence of giving everybody the right to bear arms. People will do stupid things with them.
But, you could expand this subject to the consequences of free will and the ability to make your own choices versus big brother doing it for you.
It’s not just the consequences of gun rights, although they are very serious, it is the consequences of letting people have the most freedom they can handle, and having to deal with those that chose to do bad things. Did you know that last year drug overdoses overtook violent gun deaths? Or that roughly the same amount of people are killed each year in automobile accidents, even though the fucking cars are ten times safer?
If you want to live in a police state you could police up a lot of this shit. I mean that’s the collectivist vision right there. We are all just children not capable of taking care of ourselves. But the flip side of that is that with too much freedom, the idiots come out of the woodwork and fuck themselves up as fast as possible.
I think what we’re seeing right now is the consequence of fuzzy liberal thinking, taking individual freedom and equality to ridiculous extremes. When you have a system of guiding principles, morals, and ethics present, people ten to curb their enthusiasm for doing stupid shit. But when you get this anything goes mentality, people fell free to fuck up.
So to my way of thinking, it’s the proper balance of government, plus the guiding influence of a good culture that works the best. If people can behave themselves and control their emotions, urges, etc. then there should be no problem with them owning firearms. Yes, Darwin’s Law remains in effect. The stupid, crazy, the emotional with poor impulse control, not to mention the religious and racist zealots, will do stupid things with guns. And more than likely wind up dead. And yes they may take some innocent victims with them. That is the price you pay for a liberal democracy that has turned it’s back on it’s Christian roots.
If somebody does something stupid with a weapon, that should not have any bearing on what I own, or do with a weapon. Just because the idiots are out there, even the ones playing their little games, does not mean that serious men cannot own and train with weapons.
I would even take it a step further and say I have a problem with the concept of gun rights. You have no gun rights except those you are willing to enforce, at the drop of a hat. A law stating you have this right or that is meaningless without someone willing to back it up. Not the police, not the military, but YOU. Common criminals know as much and ply their trades with weapons. They are under no delusions that some edict will protect them from harm. They know the real score. The only rights you have are those you are willing to enforce. They own guns and are fully committed to using them.
For the vast majority of people, guns are just noisy toys. If they out-lawed them, the sheeple would turn them all in, just like they did in the Commonwealth countries. The ones that kept them would be serious about it, and perhaps exercise their “gun rights”.
CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, RiflemanDecember 16, 2016 at 12:05 pm #38302RobertParticipant
Ego mainly. Fear of failure or looking a fool, because the ego cannot understand that MVT is a training experience and YOU WILL FAIL AT TIMES as part of the learning process, and it is expected and part of the growth.
If you could get TRUTHFUL answers from a 100 people that have not trained as to the REAL REASON why they don’t, I would venture to bet 90% or more would state the fear of failure.
Know what guys? EVERYONE HAS IT. But you have it LESS at time goes on and your experience grows more.
In combatives, we see an EXTREMELY small percentage of people stay past the 1 year or even the 6 month mark. Usually we say they are “1 month wonders.” Why? Cause you get your arse beat a LOT early on. 8, 10 years later you still get your arse beat sometimes, but it happens a LOT LESS. Why? Cause of your training and the experience.
We have a similar problem in combatives with the “MMA wannabees.” Not only are they arrogant, just like the untrained doofus with an assault rifle, they are dangerous. They’ve seen Anderson Silva do such and such and without any training they try to attempt to do the same thing. They wear “Tapout” shirts- we joke that most people that wear tapout shirts have never actually tapped someone out- they are gym bunnies sometimes, often young and in good shape. They leave gassing out with a bruised ego when they don’t come correct, usually having one of the teenagers whipped their butt before the adults get a chance.
A wise man can humble himself in order to learn, a fool usually has to BE HUMBLED in order to learn anything. Sounds like it’s from Proverbs but I just made that up :)
“All the gear and no clue” like Max says truly applies.
What kills me is that MOST of us are doing this for SURVIVAL. Why the hell wouldn’t you seek out professional training on a subject so damn important?? No your state mandated 3 hour CCW license class and a 1 time trip to an Appleseed wherein you shot at 25 yards is NOT all you need for skill at arms. Yet this is comprises the bulk of what most preppers think in terms of weapons training.
RMP, TC3, NODF, CRCD 6/14, CP 9/14. NODF, Land Nav, 6/15. Rifleman Challenge 9/15- Vanguard. FOFtactics 3/16, 10/16, 11/16, 6/17,11/17 CTT, 6/15, 11/16, , LRMC-1 9/17 GA Mobile CTT and DA 10/16, GA mobile DCH 3/18, HEAT1 3/18 Alum weekend 8/18, Opfor CLC 10/18, DA 11/18 CQBC 12/18December 16, 2016 at 12:16 pm #38303shooterParticipant
Not to disparage the experience or contribution of ANY veteran AT ALL… But one thing I have noticed is that even veterans often think they know a lot more than they really do. Yeah, they know more than most of us civvies, but that does not mean they know more about small unit tactics than even the average MVT alumnus. Just as a matter of statistics, there are a lot more support personnel than combat arms personnel, and even a lot of those combat arms guys may not have seen much (or any) actual combat… Even if they DID get in more than a few scraps, they may not really have their heads wrapped around SUT outside the narrow application they were directly involved in (vehicle convoys, house raids, or whatever), not to mention their perspective likely being skewed by access to supporting arms like air, artillery, mortars, etc.
A good friend of mine, retired Marine Gunny, fits the above description. Spent 20+ years in the Corps, but as soon as the conversation turns to SUT, it’s clear that his perspective is very narrow.
Anyway, I guess my point is that even though there are a lot of veterans around with recent experience after 15 years of war, very few are offering training, and very few of those are likely qualified to do it… Which means that even folks “in the know” are mostly not REALLY “in the know”, so it’s no wonder most civilians don’t know what they don’t know… Which means that they don’t even know enough to know they NEED the training.
edit to add: I have had many conversations with “gun guys” about this, and they almost all act like I’m “a little weird” for doing SUT training. Most have the attitude that if they ever have to use a firearm in combat, it will be draw from concealment and fire 2 or 3 rounds and the problem goes away – like magic! Most of the guys who have actually done quite a bit of training still think of the skills they “need” as being limited to concealed carry pistol stuff, or competition oriented rifle stuff. Normalcy bias, and “it can’t happen here” is at least as big an issue as laziness, or fear of failure at the actual class.
We are all victims of our perspective.December 16, 2016 at 1:37 pm #38305Joe (G.W.N.S.)Moderator
Not to disparage the experience or contribution of ANY veteran AT ALL…
Not to come across as mean or sarcastic, but regardless of many misconceptions by those who haven’t spent time in the military have, most military jobs have nothing to do with anything related to SUT!
These are important jobs, but have nothing to do with ground combat.
Is there anything to be done about this? No. Any attempt to do so would amount to training controls which are both impractical and an infringement on liberty.
My point isn’t to try and control others. My point is to simply be aware of this…
Anyone who spends time on this Forum, keeps their ego in check, and actually pays attention will know this, but unfortunately this issue isn’t going away.December 16, 2016 at 2:22 pm #38309AndrewParticipant
Ref: Fear of failure. Yep, everyone has it, the problem with most folks, imo, is that is where it stops. They do not try to overcome it. Very few will embrace it and use it as an opportunity to improve or gain something instead of breaking their arm to pat themselves on their back to assure themselves how cool/smart/badass they are.December 16, 2016 at 3:16 pm #38313wheelseeParticipant
As a NRA Training Counselor, one thing we discuss in all instructor-level classes is the “everyone’s an expert” concept. In the free-market climate, anyone who picks up a gun magazine at Walmart, goes to the bathroom and reads it, thinks he’s an “expert” and there’s enough ignorance out there, not to be able to discern the difference.
We show a business model of NRA Basic Pistol to get shooters comfortable with a variety of platforms, then License to Carry (TX), then expanding out to NRA Personal Protection In the Home, and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home. While I teach the gamut, I no longer teach LTC class. Reason?? Too many people just want the LTC from TX and don’t/can’t handle their firearm safely (finally quit when a student got a slide-bite and threw, yes you read right, their gun down with it landing on the ground facing me).
To quote Clint Eastwood (Harry Callahan, Magnum Force) – “A man’s got to know his limitations.” Unfortunately, many don’t.
Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon
Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)
If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc
William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018December 17, 2016 at 3:28 pm #38377DiznNCParticipant
Back to the OP, yes there are many out there who are not serious about learning weapons training for real life applications. Many are playing dress-up war games; many are not competent, for a variety of reasons. Yes, this is a serious issue. I have seen all the bubbas out there, believe me, and sometimes it is a scary thought. But I balance this against my own freedom, knowing full well that some people will endeavor to master their arms, while others will abuse them, and all the people in between. Just as in any area of life. You can’t legislate common sense. Or morality. Or character.
When I was a young lad, people had a sense of what was right, and good. It wasn’t situational. Or relative. You didn’t need the government to tell you how to act. Your family, you community, your brothers in arms provided that guidance. This culture has been under continual attack for decades; we have been told it’s evil, racist, homophobic, islamophobic, etc. by the radical left. It’s no wonder to me that without any moral compass, people have been doing stupid things with firearms at an increasingly alarming rate. Now whether you believe that this was an intentional or unintended consequence of the lowering of standards of behavior, the fact is without a solid base of morals and ethics, and a society to encourage them, as Forest said “stupid is as stupid does”.
CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, RiflemanDecember 18, 2016 at 1:01 am #38390dnbParticipant
This can be stated for many things and rights that one gets to experience in the states. Think most are aware that this is unsustainable. Things are set to change. Who knows what when and how. The world is getting crowded and wore out, technology is still accelerating. Use and abuse stuff long enough and it wears out. We are living in the good ol days. Pretty comfortable.December 18, 2016 at 10:29 pm #38424ThomasParticipant
dnb, I have no idea what you meant in your post or how it relates to the original post.
Max, I have read your post several times over a couple of days and agree with you in the context of the post. Most shooters of combat rifles have no desire for serious tactical training and want nothing beyond the free chicken they get off the internet.
However, that is only one part of the story. Another part is the number of people who came to firearms through hunting and rural life. Those shooters were trained, some very well, through what could be described as an apprentice system. Some of these shooters found their way to the tactical rifle. Regardless of whether they are correct in their assessment, they see no need for “training” because they don’t see what they learned growing up as training. So, they lack that frame of reference.
England once had a similar tradition as represented by the great gun makers of London. Holland & Holland, John Rigby & Co, and others were producers of fine hunting guns.
It would be an interesting discussion to explore how to break through the mentality of apprenticeship to move some few more to attempt tactical training such as that offered by MVT.December 19, 2016 at 1:43 am #38428MaxKeymaster
But it isn’t the role or job of MVT to try and reach people, to convert them. Any such forays into the internet cause exposure to rabid trolls and ego-idiots, and it is bad for my sanity.December 19, 2016 at 10:52 am #38444RRSParticipant
Yes I remember the foray over to AR-15com, more trolls than a Tolkien novel. Painful.
But outside the cozy confines of this forum I do engage the “culture wars”, and mostly I follow the rules of winning friends and all that but I am also not shy about throwing metaphorically a sharp elbow to the face.
Off into the weeds warning: Diz says freedom is messy, and no friend to anarchy am I. But its too late IMO for this country to reign in the stoopid. If the liberals say in 1960 before liberals became the racist crazies they are these days had read the 2A as a militia act and licensed real weaponry like a Switzerland none of us would know better and we would probably have a lot less tacticool marketing shiite to wade thru. Instead we as civvies would could probably gather at MVT and impatiently wait our turn on the Holy Machine Gun.
Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, Excellence
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