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Controlled Pairs vs. NSRs

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This topic contains 12 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of john texas 2 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #32699
    Profile photo of john
    texas
    Participant

    I happened upon a video over at WRSA this morning and I was curious as to the utility of such drills.

    WRSA Link and Video

    The general ideas/points that the videos author made basic sense to me. It has overlap in the experience I have had at MVT. For instance, those damn Ivans don’t always go down on the first shot and “shoot until you have eliminated the threat” is something I am sure I remember Max saying.

    My concern is that square range training (such as this) could train your brain in wrong ways. Which I want to avoid.

    For the record, typically my drills on the square range is limited to basic weapon manipulation and RTR drills.

    I suspect that sort of thing is/was covered/discussed at MVT in Citizen Close Combat

    Generically I am looking for what kind of square range drills can be used to improve handling of my rifle and improve my overall effectiveness without learning bad habits.

    Thoughts?

    RS/CTT/CP (VTC 10/15)
    RS/CTT/Mobility/NODF (Texas 02/16)
    FoF (VTC 03/16 Blue Team)
    CRS/CTT/NODF (Texas 02/17)
    CQB/FoF (Texas 03/17)
    DCH (VTC 03/17)
    IG: jmp_texas

    #32706
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Not sure if we did it when you last trained, but for some time we have added hammer pairs and stream fire to day 1 of CTT. We tend to use controlled pairs as a default during some if that square range training, when the focus is elsewhere.

    I specifically tell people that while doing that, controlled pairs is not a dogma or always the answer. Hammer pair and stream fire drills, bringing in multiple targets, push that point home.

    I’m not a fan of some of these set drills as described in the post, but prefer to vary uo the engagement with hammer pairs/stream fire/point of aim/ multiple targets. I don’t like canned drills.

    #32715
    Profile photo of john
    texas
    Participant

    Yes, what you described is what I remember you teaching. My main point of similarity was in that you can’t just hit once and move away. Specifically simulated by the Ivans not always dropping.

    I too, especially after training with you a few times, eschew canned drills. They are too lifeless. However, I am looking for *something* that is useful on the square range. Like I said I do tend to work on basic RTR and movement type stuff, but of course that is limited.

    Hence, I will be back out to MVT as long as time/the world allows.

    RS/CTT/CP (VTC 10/15)
    RS/CTT/Mobility/NODF (Texas 02/16)
    FoF (VTC 03/16 Blue Team)
    CRS/CTT/NODF (Texas 02/17)
    CQB/FoF (Texas 03/17)
    DCH (VTC 03/17)
    IG: jmp_texas

    #32727
    Profile photo of eric
    eric
    Participant

    Look at a rear falling pepper popper. You can adjust the number of hits it takes to knock down the popper by allowing it lean forward by the adjustment screw.
    Or better yet this
    http://www.letargets.com/content/ct-pshdth-819-r-pivot-stand-target-holder-rifle-ipsc-a-zone-steel-target.asp

    #32735
    Profile photo of Arthur Laurent
    M1-Guy
    Participant

    I went to C3 twice last year at VTC when it was offered in the class rotation. It was 2 days of intense and excellent training, weaving in the training from CTT which was a prerequisite. For me the knowledge gained in C3 is most close to what I believe I will face if an “event” occurs, or urban type warfare. One of the points continuously made by the instructors was that you shoot until the threat is down, not twice and assess. Bring the violence. Mindset.

    I think to try and practice this on a square range would be difficult, in as much as you will most likely be moving in a CQB situation, not static as on the square range.

    You are never out of the fight.

    #32736
    Profile photo of Robert
    Robert
    Participant

    Look at a rear falling pepper popper. You can adjust the number of hits it takes to knock down the popper by allowing it lean forward by the adjustment screw.
    Or better yet this
    http://www.letargets.com/content/ct-pshdth-819-r-pivot-stand-target-holder-rifle-ipsc-a-zone-steel-target.asp

    That’s how I have mine setup most of the time. They have to have two good hits quickly or they won’t fall.

    REALLY fun with pistols- think 4 9mm head shots in quick fashion to push one over.

    www.jrhenterprises.com
    RMP, TC3, NODF, CRCD 6/14, CP 9/14. NODF, Land Nav, 6/15. Rifleman Challenge 9/15- Vanguard. FOFtactics 3/16, 10/16, 11/16, 6/17,11/17 CTT, 6/15, 11/16, , LRMC-1 9/17 GA Mobile CTT and DA 10/16, GA mobile DCH 3/18, HEAT1 3/18 Alum weekend 8/18, Opfor CLC 10/18, DA 11/18 CQBC 12/18

    #32738
    Profile photo of MrB
    MrB
    Participant

    This is how I remember it. When making the “last bound” or assaulting through a position, keep pumping the rounds into the guy/ guys until you reach the LOE. Same would apply in CQB for most situations.

    On the lane, if you saw the “contact” and you’re the front guy, RTR (put two rounds in him and get to cover) regardless if he went down. If another guys called out “Contact” and you didnt’ immediately see it, get your but to cover because you are standing on the X!

    Obviously that is really glossed over, but if you arn’t right on top of the guy you need to MOVE and stop being that big juicy target.

    RS/ CTT Aug 16

    Effort is no guarantee of success, it only removes the guarantee of failure

    #32750
    Profile photo of john
    texas
    Participant

    I imagine the that center 2×4 gets chewed up pretty quickly! But this does look like a nice training device.

    Look at a rear falling pepper popper. You can adjust the number of hits it takes to knock down the popper by allowing it lean forward by the adjustment screw.
    Or better yet this
    http://www.letargets.com/content/ct-pshdth-819-r-pivot-stand-target-holder-rifle-ipsc-a-zone-steel-target.asp

    That’s how I have mine setup most of the time. They have to have two good hits quickly or they won’t fall.

    REALLY fun with pistols- think 4 9mm head shots in quick fashion to push one over.

    RS/CTT/CP (VTC 10/15)
    RS/CTT/Mobility/NODF (Texas 02/16)
    FoF (VTC 03/16 Blue Team)
    CRS/CTT/NODF (Texas 02/17)
    CQB/FoF (Texas 03/17)
    DCH (VTC 03/17)
    IG: jmp_texas

    #32754
    Profile photo of eric
    eric
    Participant

    You would be surprised. Each 2×4 lasts several range sessions. Plus if you look around broke 2×4’s can be had for free.

    #32765
    Profile photo of john
    texas
    Participant

    Ok, that is good to hear. I may pick one of these up to add some variety.

    RS/CTT/CP (VTC 10/15)
    RS/CTT/Mobility/NODF (Texas 02/16)
    FoF (VTC 03/16 Blue Team)
    CRS/CTT/NODF (Texas 02/17)
    CQB/FoF (Texas 03/17)
    DCH (VTC 03/17)
    IG: jmp_texas

    #32766
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    Texas: Here’s another drill. It’s very simple to set up. Take 3 IPSC targets, arrange them so they simulate a guy falling to the deck as you are shooting him. So one target straight up, one at say a 45 deg angle, and the last at around 90 deg. You can space them all together on one backer board, or use three separate to simulate him moving as well.

    Now do a drill where you have to get 2 BCM (ballistic center mass) hits on EACH target, under a certain time limit. At say 10m.

    This is a butt-simple way to train on what you’re talking about. The idea is to shoot in a continuous cadence: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, without any break in the rhythm, as you move eyes, then pistol to each target.

    With rifle, you have to remember your sight/bore offset is going to change as the target changes aspect on you. You have to allow for your point of aim shift as the target becomes more horizontal. So you will find the “sweet spot” aiming point changing as the guy drops to the deck.

    This is an important point to realize for a real gunfight; as the guy moves laterally on you and becomes more horizontal, the sight/bore off-set shifts to the horizontal (across the target’s chest) rather than vertical (or up and down the target’s chest).

    For example, as you shift and fire on the second target, which is say about 45 deg, the POA is now shifted towards the LEFT side of the BCM “box” (the upper portion of the “A” zone). It’s still aimed in maybe 3″ HIGH to allow for off-set, but HIGH has changed to some LEFT side because of the way the target if falling (to the right). So depending on the angle, you may be aiming in at the upper left corner of the “A” zone box, to still get a center mass hit.

    Then, on the horizontal target, of around 90 deg, the POA has shifted all the way over to the LEFT side of the box, even thought you’re still aiming in 3″ HIGH on it. But because the target aspect has changed in relation to you, your HIGH is now his LEFT. So you may be aiming in at the extreme left edge of the box (as viewed from vertical) to get a center mass hit.

    Hope that makes sense?

    This is the same principle as you would do for a target falling straight back (as you lower your POA), but now you have to work in TWO dimensions.

    A couple of key points. Make sure your move you scan first, lock on to new target location, then move muzzle. If you get lazy and just scan and move at the same time, you tend to shoot past aim point. Try and shoot in a continuous rhythm, not 1, 2, pause, 1, 2. This forces you to learn how to track a moving target and hit it accurately.

    As you get better, you could go for 3 (or 4) shots each to mix it up and not standardize on 2 rds. This isn’t a controlled pair drill; it’s a continuous string of fire drill.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

    #32768
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I’m on the range so quickly:

    Cadence fire as Diz States is a big thing being taught SF. It is an alternate technique to the miz x of hammer pairs / stream fire that we tend to teach at RS/CTT.

    I have had students do both and it’s personal. One thing you have to consider is that the reason for hammer pairs rather than just going to stream fire is the need to get rounds onto multiple enemy quick, and then follow up with what still needs killing, usually with stream fire.

    This is all rifle, closer range, surprise engagement reflexive fire stuff.

    Gotta go.

    #32796
    Profile photo of john
    texas
    Participant

    @diznnc, thanks for the ideas. I am always looking for some ways I can keep sharp until my next class, which isn’t until Feb down here in Texas.

    RS/CTT/CP (VTC 10/15)
    RS/CTT/Mobility/NODF (Texas 02/16)
    FoF (VTC 03/16 Blue Team)
    CRS/CTT/NODF (Texas 02/17)
    CQB/FoF (Texas 03/17)
    DCH (VTC 03/17)
    IG: jmp_texas

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