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CQB Technique – The G-Wrap

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This topic contains 19 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of First Sergeant First Sergeant 9 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #58317
    Profile photo of Wes
    wesmc
    Participant

    This was just passed along to me by a friend. Thoughts?

    C2G Feb 2015, CTT March 2016, CQB June 2018

    #58320
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    Just my two cents.

    There are some underlying good insights, such as hip index being a really weak retention position and that the majority of disarms happen during the drawstroke.

    A few things to think about though:

    -The specific problem he’s trying to overcome is for police officers, IE open carry. Hopefully the opponent doesn’t realize you have a gun in the first place. Which might reduce the overall occurrence of gun grabs vs LEO. Even if properly concealed, there’s no guarantee that the opponent(s) are ignorant. Maybe they personally know you and know that you carry. Maybe, in the clinch, your shirt comes up and they catch a glimpse of it.

    -Although not popular from a safety perspective, appendix carry changes the situation a bit…I’ll leave it at that.

    -The “g-wrap” itself has good intentions, using two hands to try to increase the chances of getting a shot into OP4, but it makes me think of a “swinging for the fences” kinda thing. With both hands on your weapon, the OP4 could pin your support hand with his one hand, locking up both your hands unless you take your strong hand off the weapon (OP4 may or may not take that one round, which may or may not get him to pause enough for you to create some distance) and then he can go HAM on your face/neck with his free hand (which could potentially have something sharp and pointy suddenly appear in it).

    -All this to say, crazy shit happens, there are no guarantees, anything can happen, and that “gun grappling” is super situational and unpredictable.

    There are a few alumni of a course somewhere called ECQC, who would have further insight, @tango @jeffsags

    #58323
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I’ll bite. Big topic, short answer.

    1) Avoidance.
    2) Awareness.
    3) Despite all that if you get ambush attacked or just get into it with someone that results in hands on.

    You have to learn how to fight! Granted there may be specific examples such as small woman versus big guy where you have less of a chance of prevailing (see all before about avoidance and awareness).

    But I just don’t see these techniques as viable once you are in that sort of a clinch. Going for a gun gives you more chance of taking blows that will render you senseless. You are taking one or two hands out of defending / striking.

    My priority is initially to simply fight the guy, to defend and incapacitate him in order to create space. If I am massively over matched I will be trying to create space in order to draw, if armed.

    Fitness and mobility also wins!

    #58325
    Profile photo of Jason Howe
    BrothersKeeper
    Participant

    I can’t over stress the value of a good KRAV MAGA gym. This martial art teaches all manner of combatives that deal with these situations. Max is absolutely correct. Avoidance, awareness . . . but if you have to fight, you have to fully commit to winning. If you have no fighting skill or fitness, you will probably lose and possibly be killed. I train from a deficit (worst case scenario) all the time in my KRAV classes and it’s really heightened my awareness and aggression. Max talks often about flipping that switch. You have to train to learn how to do that.

    Land Nav 06/15
    Rifle Skills/CTT/CP
    10/15
    CLC 04/17
    Alumni Live Fire 08/18

    Don’t let your past define your future.

    #58327
    Profile photo of Jason Howe
    BrothersKeeper
    Participant

    The techniques they show seem sound, but I will stay true to this idea . . . I have to earn the right to draw a weapon in a fight. I need space and time between me and the bad guy before I bring the weapon into the fight. This means I need to use effective strikes to soften him up or incapacitate him. Johnny and Max both addressed the unpredictability of a fight and the reality of fighting with a gun in your hands like that hoping that get off a good shot is very problematic. Learn how to fight without a weapon. I know too many people who feel power and a false sense of security with a handgun. These fools will die quickly if the shit goes down.

    Land Nav 06/15
    Rifle Skills/CTT/CP
    10/15
    CLC 04/17
    Alumni Live Fire 08/18

    Don’t let your past define your future.

    #58328
    Profile photo of tango
    tango
    Participant

    Not a fan of this idea. This guy is teaching police officers? Kind of makes sense why he’s teaching this. Gross generalization, but police officer mentality tends to be all guns no fight. Many are not fit, don’t train combatives (or much else), and don’t even really have an interest in doing so. This technique looks like a quick, oversimplified answer that just fits into that paradigm.

    As someone who is frequently size overmatched when training this type of hand-to-hand stuff my priority is breaking contact and space. Drawing in the clinch is almost never a good idea. To effectively fight like this there must be skills and patience to be able to introduce the weapon at the proper time. Introducing too early usually makes the situation worse.

    Put anyone under genuine stress with that technique, while holding their slide, with their finger on the trigger, and guaranteed they’re just going to jam their own gun and not be able to fix it before getting wrecked. To get more than 1 shot off would be surprising.

    This also provides no provisions for the enemy wielding an edged weapon. How do you control an opposing blade with your hands locked around your gun?

    Baptême du feu
    L'appel du vide

    #58337
    Profile photo of Roadkill
    Roadkill
    Participant

    Double palm heal to the throat. Create a little distance, draw and shoot if you have to. I can also see putting a round through your own hand with this technique. Just my 2cents.

    RS/CTT Nov 16
    HEAT1 Aug18

    #58340
    Profile photo of A_A_Ron2guns
    A_A_Ron2guns
    Participant

    I’m a cop! I’ll take a swing here.

    Understanding that nothing happens in a vacuum will give some context to this technique. It has merit. Most everyone has alluded to combatives and how difficult it is to draw in a fight and that you usually will have to create distance to bring a gun to bare. That is all true!

    This technique is primarily used when the gun is already out such as during a felony arrest, building search etc. the gun is already out and you now have to retain it. There are plenty of instances where pointing a gun and NOT using it (attempting to gain compliance) is a viable option. Not just for cops. Don’t fall into the “if you draw it you have to use it” trap. That’s a dangerous fallacy.

    Holstering in a fight and maintaining your weapon are equally difficult. This allows you to hold onto your gun when you can’t holster it because you don’t have the time and space. Those two ships have already sailed. It also gives you a one shot deal which will 1. Hopefully have an effect, 2. Alert people that there’s a gun and the dude is a lethal threat, 3. Disable the gun in case it does get taken.

    It’s a tool for the tool box and should not be disregarded out of hand.

    I’ll also reiterate the need for hand to hand skills, carrying a knife and physical fitness.

    I’ve gone to appendix carry (after hating it for a long time) and a fixed blade knife as well.

    And not all cops don’t train ;-)

    You are what you do, when it counts. -The Masao

    Not the other Aaron's in this industry!

    #58341
    Profile photo of JeffSags
    JeffSags
    Participant

    CTT/heat1 is to riflery as ECQC is to concealed carry.

    Aaron, I also carry appendix with a small fixed blade knife and an impact weapon. Curious as to why you made the switch?

    CRCD AUG 13, CRCD MAR 14, CP AUG 14, CR MAR 15, Shivworks ECQC, MVT RIFLEMAN, CTT AUG 16, CQBC

    #58342
    Profile photo of A_A_Ron2guns
    A_A_Ron2guns
    Participant

    I made the switch after doing police work for little while. I found that it’s easier to retain my weapon in a fight, access it when I’m at a disadvantage and carry a reload and knife all in one single package. My fixed blade is screwed to the kydex holster. It’s also an easy holster to take on and off. I can conceal it much easier too as it’s very similar to what bag guys carry. I also switch clothes a couple times a day too so it’s important to have a modular approach. It’s also more comfortable and easier to access in a vehicle.

    If I could post pictures I’d show ya! Sorry. No lie though I absolutely hated it until I started working it.

    You are what you do, when it counts. -The Masao

    Not the other Aaron's in this industry!

    #58344
    Profile photo of Jason Howe
    BrothersKeeper
    Participant

    Thanks for the perspective guys.

    Land Nav 06/15
    Rifle Skills/CTT/CP
    10/15
    CLC 04/17
    Alumni Live Fire 08/18

    Don’t let your past define your future.

    #58345
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I went to appendix. Currently away from it. It is not superior, but an option.

    Actually now I am carrying OWB mag pouches and holster. Nice little multicam kydex from firstspear for my Glock 26. I conceal with a shirt.

    Appendix is better for concealability and on/off convenience, although I found I had to have the belt just right or the holster/ gun would pull forward slightly over top of my belt and could print. I remain unconvinced about the ECQB benefits.

    OWB is of course not optimal for concealability but it is for comfort and practicality. I would find myself removing the appendix due to discomfort – and of course it is easy and convenient to do so. I would give up on it at home in the evening or doing farm chores. But I also do a lot of physical work outside. And wearing a classic owb holster just works so much better.

    #58346
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    Some things need to be discussed in reference to this video.

    First, if you are concealed carrying and you end up in a situation like this, you have already failed. What’s between your ears will keep you out of more situations than a gun will. Pre-assault indicators. Distance is your friend.

    Second, any type of fight for a gun, whether it’s yours or the bad guy, somebody is going to get shot. There is a chance it’s going to be you. That has to be in your mind when you start fighting over a gun. If you don’t train for these types of scenarios constantly, you are fucked. It is one of the reasons that I am a big advocate for hammer fired guns.

    Third, the majority of people walking around with a gun, cop or citizen, are utterly and completely untrained in weapon handling. Basic weapons manipulation is non existent. Loading, unloading, draw, malfunction drills, reloads, DHO and SHO.

    AIWB, if it works for you, great. It doesn’t work for everyone.

    I carry a small fixed blade centerline of my body. I can reach it with either hand but it is set up to primarily be used by my support hand.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #58348
    Profile photo of A_A_Ron2guns
    A_A_Ron2guns
    Participant

    Why do you advocate for hammer fired guns?

    You are what you do, when it counts. -The Masao

    Not the other Aaron's in this industry!

    #58356
    Profile photo of Robert
    Robert
    Participant

    Southnarc’s stuff is good from what I’ve seen so far of it. Working from the clinch with any weapon system changes things.

    www.jrhenterprises.com
    RMP, TC3, NODF, CRCD 6/14, CP 9/14. NODF, Land Nav, 6/15. Rifleman Challenge 9/15- Vanguard. FOFtactics 3/16, 10/16, 11/16, 6/17,11/17 CTT, 6/15, 11/16, , LRMC-1 9/17 GA Mobile CTT and DA 10/16, GA mobile DCH 3/18, HEAT1 3/18 Alum weekend 8/18, Opfor CLC 10/18, DA 11/18 CQBC 12/18

    #58366
    Profile photo of Robert
    Robert
    Participant

    What happens when the other party brings a weapon into play? I.e, with the other hand while your “g holding” and double gripping your gun (fear of losing it)

    www.jrhenterprises.com
    RMP, TC3, NODF, CRCD 6/14, CP 9/14. NODF, Land Nav, 6/15. Rifleman Challenge 9/15- Vanguard. FOFtactics 3/16, 10/16, 11/16, 6/17,11/17 CTT, 6/15, 11/16, , LRMC-1 9/17 GA Mobile CTT and DA 10/16, GA mobile DCH 3/18, HEAT1 3/18 Alum weekend 8/18, Opfor CLC 10/18, DA 11/18 CQBC 12/18

    #58378
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    Why do you advocate for hammer fired guns?

    One of the things I was taught years ago. If you are in a fight for your gun and it has a hammer, the simple act of putting your thumb over the hammer can prevent the gun from firing during the fight. Your thumb might get broke, but I can still shoot a pistol with a broken thumb in a life or death situation.

    There are some other reasons for carrying in general, but the above is why for this situation.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #58387
    Profile photo of A_A_Ron2guns
    A_A_Ron2guns
    Participant

    Why do you advocate for hammer fired guns?

    One of the things I was taught years ago. If you are in a fight for your gun and it has a hammer, the simple act of putting your thumb over the hammer can prevent the gun from firing during the fight. Your thumb might get broke, but I can still shoot a pistol with a broken thumb in a life or death situation.

    There are some other reasons for carrying in general, but the above is why for this situation.

    Gotcha

    You are what you do, when it counts. -The Masao

    Not the other Aaron's in this industry!

    #58388
    Profile photo of A_A_Ron2guns
    A_A_Ron2guns
    Participant

    What happens when the other party brings a weapon into play? I.e, with the other hand while your “g holding” and double gripping your gun (fear of losing it)

    If they’re bringing in another weapon it means they have to discontinue the gun grab with one or both of their hands.

    You then have more control on the gun. You malfunction clear and shoot them. This requires either two hands or one hand and some skill to clear a malfunction single handed and then you use the other hand to clear, control and defend.

    This g wrap isint a system. It’s a single technique that should mesh with the rest of your skills. Pectoral index, edged weapon clearing, ground defense etc will all be used in a rapidly changing and fluid fight. It’s fast, violent and unpredictable.

    Multiple weapons in a confined space it’s usually all bets are off and aggression and training are usually the deciding factors but luck is always a factor too.

    You are what you do, when it counts. -The Masao

    Not the other Aaron's in this industry!

    #58416
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    What happens when the other party brings a weapon into play? I.e, with the other hand while your “g holding” and double gripping your gun (fear of losing it)

    If they’re bringing in another weapon it means they have to discontinue the gun grab with one or both of their hands.

    You then have more control on the gun. You malfunction clear and shoot them. This requires either two hands or one hand and some skill to clear a malfunction single handed and then you use the other hand to clear, control and defend.

    This g wrap isint a system. It’s a single technique that should mesh with the rest of your skills. Pectoral index, edged weapon clearing, ground defense etc will all be used in a rapidly changing and fluid fight. It’s fast, violent and unpredictable.

    Multiple weapons in a confined space it’s usually all bets are off and aggression and training are usually the deciding factors but luck is always a factor too.

    Bingo.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

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