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Houston SWAT/PD raid with casualties

Home Forums Tactics & Leadership CQB and Urban Operations Houston SWAT/PD raid with casualties

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  • #65558
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    How many times did Max talk about TTPs??? How many of us got caught in the doorway or just inside??

    The below is from another site (closed) but seemed to have good information. I have NOT verified it.

    Beginning of copy——

    There was 14 LEOs on target, entry team was 5 UC Narcotic LEOs w/ 9 Patrol LEOs as backup to serve a no knock Narcotics warrant after CIs had made 2 black tar heroin buys at the target house

    2 UC LEOs did a recce early that day to confirm target but there were no eyes on target prior to serving the warrant to give any real time intell

    5 UC Narcotics LEO’s breeched the front door with a shotgun(#5 man w/ Hatton rds),#1 man began entry and a pitbull attacked him, #1 man also had a shotgun, #1 stopped just inside the door to swack the dog(dog KIA) & was shot by white trash man from the 11 position 10ft away while still static, once hit #1 man feel right 3ft onto a couch where white trash women was seated.

    #2,3 & 4 had no flow & were choked up just inside the entry point behind #1 when #2 & #3 were hit once each by white trash man to there 11 while both were engaging white trash women to there 3, who was trying to get the #1 man’s shotgun when he fell on the couch(white trash women got swacked KIA by #2 & #3 man)

    With still no flow & 3 LE hit the #4 man pushed left & engaged white trash man & #5 man(breecher) made entry & got shot in the face by white trash man in the choke point.

    At this point everyone went full mag dump & white trash man caught one in the mouth & he was KIA

    White trash man was a long time drug user & seller he was also a Army Veteran, he used a corner wall as durable concealment with a good line of sight & his gun was Smith & Wesson 686 Revoler which he shot 5 of 6 rounds with 4 hits, the 5th officer injured(#4 man) suffered a knee injury

    With stuff like this I prefer to refrain from commenting on a depts TTPs but this is a exception, I would hope there AAR & subsequent lessons learned would benefit the dept but this dept has a long history of brushing off AARs & repeating poor TTPs regardless of results

    End of copy_______-

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #65559
    Profile photo of Lloyd
    shooter
    Participant

    I’m no expert, but one thing that has really stood out to me when watching videos of cops doing no-knock raids is that they often seem VERY complacent. Often the guy(s) at the front of the stack look pretty switched on, but by the time to get to the back of the stack, you see rifles lazily hanging from slings, or even leaning against the wall while the dudes at the rear of the stack are shooting the breeze about where they’re going to go for lunch, or whatever.

    My guess has always been that all of the above is due to the gross overuse of no knock raids. Seems like I remember hearing that some big city depts have teams that will do several of these raids per day, 99% of which are unopposed… so when the S finally does HTF, they are completely taken by surprise.

    ---

    We are all victims of our perspective.

    #65560
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    This is interesting. I looked elsewhere and saw this raid was at 5PM, so daylight, and was onto a ‘soft walls’ structure. Given the total numbers involved it seems hard to think they managed to achieve surprise prior to the breach, but the fact that the woman was still seated on the couch next to the doors suggest that they might have. Also the male engaging with only a revolver leads us to think that he didn’t have time to get another weapon, such as a rifle, unless that was all he had in the house? Lots of assumptions here.

    I would like to see footage / information on which side of the door the stack vs. breacher were etc. If you have done CQBC, or if you have read the relevant chapter in the Tactical Manual, this will give you a little idea:

    Assuming (big assumption) the stack was to the left of the door. Surprise is achieved, and the occupants only have the time between the shotgun breach going off to react to this. If (and I know he probably wasn’t) the #1 man had been using step center, the preferred method for a dynamic breach, he would have had an opportunity to see the woman seated seated to the right of the door, close to the door it appears, and the description of him falling to the right onto the couch makes it sound like the couch was against the near wall? Whether he engaged her or not depends on a quick assessment of whether she was armed / threat? I would assume not?

    As he completed his dynamic pie / into the step center, at some point he would get attacked by the dog. This fucks his OODA loop. Theoretically, as he steps center he should see the guy at 11 with the revolver, and be able to engage as he continues to his near left corner on entry. All rounds should be fired before his muzzle breaks the plane of the door before he conducts a penetrating step as he button hooks towards the near left corner.

    An attacking dog is going to fuck with that organized step center/penetrating step. But he needs to keep going. If he started left, he should be turning left, in order to give the #2 guy the path of least resistance by just driving across the doorway. This would be driving him towards the woman on the couch.

    Now, if #1 was OODA-fucked by killing the dog, and he missed the guy at 11, he should still be going left, even if at that point he is shot by the 11 guy. #2 is driving right onto the room and provides rabbits running in opposite directions. They both have to clear the door. Even if both those guys get shot by 11 guy with the revolver, #3 should be right there and 11 guy is right in his sector and he should kill him at that point. #4 is also in and dealing with the woman on the couch, even if she is reaching for, in this example, the rifle dropped by a shot #2 guy (not #1 as per what actually happened).

    If #1 goes into the room, you have to get into the room, fast. The other option is that #1 does not enter, and tries to fight from the door, not ideal with soft walls. What appears to have happened, here was that, whatever his method of entry was (I suspect old-school dynamic given he ended up falling to the right onto the sofa, unless the stack was to the right and he button-hooked), he was interrupted in the process of going through the door by the dog. If that happens he needs to get the fuck out of the way of the door and allow the rest of the stack to get in and nail down their sectors.

    #65561
    Profile photo of RampantRaptor
    rampantraptor
    Participant

    Tactics aside, the whole thing sounds fishy. A no-knock raid without police identification, and all they managed to nab was some weed and some unspecified white powder. Neither suspect had any serious criminal history, and neighbors are saying they didn’t suspect them to be drug dealers either.

    https://www.officer.com/tactical/swat/news/21045015/new-details-released-in-shootout-that-left-houston-officers-wounded

    Until someone comes up with hard evidence from someone that doesn’t have a stake in the narrative (court records rather than “The police said so”) this might very well be a case of someone defending their home with a firearm against unknown assailants.

    Meanwhile the commissioner there are using this as a rallying cry for gun control and suggesting they’re ready to spy on folks who criticize the police.

    #RaqqaSummer2017
    - - -
    Jîn, Jiyan, Azadî

    #65562
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    Just an excerpt from CBS:

    The first officer fired a shotgun blast, killing the dog. Suspect Dennis Tuttle, 59, initially retreated but returned with a .357 Magnum, shooting the officer in the shoulder, the chief said. The officer collapsed onto a couch in the living room.
    As the other narcotics officers charged through the door — which Acevedo described as a “fatal funnel” — the second suspect, Rhogena Nicholas, 58, tried to wrestle the shotgun away from the officer on the couch. Police quickly shot her.

    What may have happened is #1 gets shot from his sector or long, OP4 conceals himself, #1 moves away from sector into #2’s sector, then #2 only sees woman going for #1’s shotgun and gets sucked into that threat. What was #3 doing?

    ..too much unknown to actually analyze

    attacking dog

    I came across the most muscular pitbull I’ve ever seen (~120#, short) while visiting an animal shelter. I noticed he had staples all across his neck and so I asked the handler what was up. It turned out he belonged to a drug dealer. During the raid, both the male dog and his female attacked the police. Both shot, female died, he survived. It was crazy to see the dog walking around like a boss, having taken such a wound. I never saw him again, presumably because he was destroyed. Damn shame such a fine animal was in the hands of an alleged bad guy.

    #65563
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    sounds fishy. A no-knock raid without police identification, and all they managed to nab was some weed and some unspecified white powder.

    No-knock raids are a major issue…in this case, who knows what crimes he was a suspect in, maybe it wasn’t just drugs.

    #65564
    Profile photo of RampantRaptor
    rampantraptor
    Participant

    sounds fishy. A no-knock raid without police identification, and all they managed to nab was some weed and some unspecified white powder.

    No-knock raids are a major issue…in this case, who knows what crimes he was a suspect in, maybe it wasn’t just drugs.

    Innocent until proven guilty much? If they suspected him in other crimes they darn well would have said so to bolster their own case.

    When our time comes, maybe that crazy gun guy who got shot during that confiscation order had some other stuff going on too, who knows?

    #RaqqaSummer2017
    - - -
    Jîn, Jiyan, Azadî

    #65565
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    nnocent until proven guilty much?

    Like I said, no knock raids are a major issue

    #65566
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    From the OP – after CIs had made 2 black tar heroin buys at the target house………2 UC LEOs did a recce early that day to confirm target but there were no eyes on target prior to serving the warrant to give any real time intell

    Presumably, SWAT had a good idea of the house layout and that even dog(s) were present. This info would have been part of our pre-brief.

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #65567
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    An attacking dog is going to fuck with that organized step center/penetrating step.

    I wonder what true Intel they had regarding this?

    K9’s can truly complicate this type of entry and even a few lap dogs could be very distracting to include a trip hazard.

    Imagine coming through the door and be greeted by half a dozen or so K9’s (my house)! ;-) Fortunately I am not the norm and not a likely target of such interest.

    …was onto a ‘soft walls’ structure.

    Thought this Thread Concealment does Not equal Cover, Urban Environments might be worth reviewing as a reminder. Few architecture in the US provides more than just concealment.

    #65568
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Tactics aside, the whole thing sounds fishy

    Innocent until proven guilty much?

    Try not to get too worked up, no comments to this point; beyond yours, have made any judgements regarding the necessity of this raid.

    It’s focus has been the mechanics of it and possible lessons learned.

    I really look for lessons learned from both perspectives, attacked and defender. ;-)

    #65569
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Imagine being on the receiving end of this?

    OODA what? B-)

    #65571
    Profile photo of Mike Q
    Mike Q
    Participant

    The presence of the dog would have given the homeowners notice there were people outside of the house. My dog goes absolutely ape shit when she sees or hears someone outside of the door.

    There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it twice.

    CRM Sept. 2014, CTT 1505, CTT July 2015, RC-Rifleman 1502, CP Nov. 2015, FoF March 2016, CCW May 2016, FoF Oct. 2016, FoF Nov. 2016, CLC April 2017, FoF Nov. 2017, Alumni weekend Aug. 2018, CQB Dec. 2018

    #65573
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    This was a fuck up from the get go.

    From elsewhere it is being reported that the UC’s didn’t buy at the house but in the “vicinity” of the house.

    If these were such dangerous people, the only gun reportedly found was a .357 revolver. No heroin. These people had no criminal record worth talking about. No reports of lots of comings and goings at all hours.

    What are the odds that some of this was friendly fire?

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #65575
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    This whole thing is bullshit. If it happened as described, those officers had no business entering that house as they had no fucking clue what they were doing.

    As noted these so called “no knock” warrants are at the least a poor choice for all but the most extreme circumstances. In my limited knowledge they seem to be more about justifying budgets through numbers.

    Many times they seem to be a result of lax investigative work and should not be conducted based on just CI’s in my opinion.

    #65576
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Here’s a thought I had earlier, spurred on just now by what 1SG just said about ‘in the vicinity’ and no drugs being found. Clearly the report originally posted by Wheelsee was from a law enforcement forum. Correct? I didn’t know at the time that these guys had no drugs, but the report is very derogatory. ‘White Trash.” It does also say “serve a no knock Narcotics warrant after CIs had made 2 black tar heroin buys at the target house” – but is there conflicting evidence to this now?

    But the report does say that the entry team were undercover cops. Does this mean they were non-uniformed? i.e. not bursting through the door as you would expect a SWAT team to look, but simply guys in civvies with shotguns and ARs? If so, and surprise was achieved (Mike’s point about the dog giving warning is a thing to consider also) – what did the two now-deceased occupants think in that moment that the door burst open and the dog rushed it to attack the intruders? Guys bursting in with civilian clothes? He only had a revolver. She was on the couch. He was in the kitchen, or whatever. She goes to grab a shotgun off the first guy to fall and gets slotted for it. How close was she to actually having real control of the weapon, or did they go full retard once they opened the doors and dogs and bullets started flying? I bet she could have been subdued.

    These ‘white trash’ for all I know could be stand-up Americans who defended themselves to an armed home invasion, for all I know. the whole blue line PR bullshit line being shoved down our throats notwithstanding.

    The thing is, this no-knock raid stuff is bullshit. If cops want to play silly games, the numbers say that eventually they will win silly prizes. Being trained for CQB is not the same as a bunch of guys ‘all the gear, no idea.’ But of course they do not expect resistance, and thus are surprised when it happens. If they expected resistance they needed an assault pan and distraction devices, etc. An assault plan does not usually involve going in through the front door.

    If this warrant thing can’t be solved by mail, phone or a visit by two detectives in suit and tie, and it really is considered a dangerous situation i.e an arrest or a raid, then if real resistance is expected the best tactical plan is a ‘call-out.’ Unless you are going to send in a real tactical team with a real plan, gas, distraction devices, etc. A call out means surrounding a place and locking it down, and demanding suspects surrender, otherwise bang gas through the windows etc and ultimately assault if necessary. This no-knock stuff is crazy and it shows the bad place we are in with law enforcement methods in the country.

    It ultimately leads to a death sentence for those being raided, whatever the warrant is actually for. And the warrant is not a trial. It may not happen most of the time when the occupants are caught asleep and there is no resistance, but there are enough people who will either fight or between that and poorly trained SWAT, who will pull the trigger, people will be killed.

    Between Fox news and that stupid meme of half a marine/ half a cop talking about defending our freedoms, it chaps my balls. None of this is about our freedoms. It is mostly about raising revenue.

    #65577
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    I accidentally deleted my second post as I was trying to edit it.

    Sorry for that.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #65580
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    …but is there conflicting evidence to this now?

    Given the conflicting public reports I don’t want to take much as concrete.

    Will wait for more conclusive information.

    Note: The article rampantraptor linked had the following…

    From it all, authorities seized marijuana and a white powder — possibly cocaine or fentanyl — along with two 12-gauge shotguns, a 20-gauge shotgun, a 22-caliber rifle and a second rifle. It’s unclear whether the couple legally owned the weapons, and police didn’t specify what quantities of the suspected drugs were recovered.

    The “possibly” white powder and lack of amounts is troubling and the “unclear whether the couple legally owned the weapons” crap. No record means no restriction on firearms ownership. Additionally not exactly the arsenal of criminals.

    Also in linked article…

    ‘I don’t buy it’

    When Elizabeth Ferrari spoke to her brother last week, he seemed fine. The 59-year-old Navy veteran was happy and, it appeared, life was good. His neighbors had spotted him out and about walking the dog.

    But, generally, he and his wife of 21 years kept to themselves.

    That they were at the center of Monday’s chaos came as a surprise to those who knew them, and some were skeptical of the official account that branded them as suspected heroin dealers.

    “I don’t buy it at all,” Ferrari said. “Not one hot minute.”

    Monique Caballero, a friend who’d known the couple for about five years, was even more forceful about her doubts.

    “I cannot believe this; she’s not like that. “ Caballero said. “She’s not a drug addict or dealer.”

    Instead, she said, the officers killed “innocent people.” Other friends and relatives offered similar disbelief.

    So there is much to be learned before any judgements are made, but will keep an eye on it.

    This maybe worth a review…

    Passive Counter CQB: Urban

    …buying some time maybe appropriate in these situations.

    #65582
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    A Navy veteran who put 4 of 5 rounds on targets (based on initial reports, I have NO information re: which injured officers have what caliber injuries) but, on the surface, have to ask – what did he do in the Navy??

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #65583
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    …what did he do in the Navy??

    Well regardless of whether he was innocent or a criminal, he certainly seemed proficient with his revolver. I would suspect at least a background used to higher stress.

    Of course this assumes he actually inflicted all of those injuries, which certainly isn’t a sure thing at this point.

    #65584
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    From some of the comments, the question of even being the right house is in my mind (again, this is early in the fact finding) as I was involved in a situation where our Intel came from the outside (federal), my TL requested time to verify the info, it was denied, so hit the location……..no one was home which was a good thing because we had hit the wrong address……never heard my Captain so verbal, and the sheriff declined the use of our team for this particular agency again.

    My point – was this a combined agency op?? Did they hit the wrong house?? Was the homeowner merely defending his property?? Does Houston have a problem with cartels (or others) wearing police gear hitting locations (I know AZ has had this problem, but it’s been a LONG time since I’ve been in that area), FYI US Hwy 59 runs from South Texas through Houston up into the Midwest and has always been a drug conduit.

    Many questions, few answers for now……..time will tell.

    Above are only questions and speculation……..

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #65591
    Profile photo of Mike Q
    Mike Q
    Participant

    I don’t want to jump to conclusions but this whole thing feels like watching a movie made in 1989 starring Tom Selleck, “An Innocent Man”. I’m not saying the police planted anything but the basic premise is the same.

    There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it twice.

    CRM Sept. 2014, CTT 1505, CTT July 2015, RC-Rifleman 1502, CP Nov. 2015, FoF March 2016, CCW May 2016, FoF Oct. 2016, FoF Nov. 2016, CLC April 2017, FoF Nov. 2017, Alumni weekend Aug. 2018, CQB Dec. 2018

    #65592
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    No-one picking up on the issue of non-uniformed police crashing through the door?

    #65593
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I’m not saying the police planted anything but the basic premise is the same.

    I thought this too, but will wait to see.

    No-one picking up on the issue of non-uniformed police crashing through the door?

    Always a screwed up deal, with copycat home invasions even some semblance of uniform is hardly enough.

    #65594
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    No-one picking up on the issue of non-uniformed police crashing through the door?

    I was actually thinking about this last night. How the fuck anyone is supposed to know that it’s NOT a home invasion is beyond me.

    There is case law of home defenders (who survive) that are NOT indicted on charges…and those ARE indicted. Circumstances do not really provide any conclusions, it’s a straight up crapshoot, that IF you survive, you might be going to jail anyway….politics.

    #65595
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    copycat home invasions

    An armed robbery at my alma mater a few years ago started with a knock on the door and “Campus Police”.

    #65596
    Profile photo of Brushpopper
    Brushpopper
    Participant

    No-one picking up on the issue of non-uniformed police crashing through the door?

    I’ve wondered about this before, how is one to know who is breaking in your door and swarming in? Someone kicks in my door, no knock, no uniform, with my family present I’m going to assume the worst and things are going to get a little waspy!

    ~ Little - South Texas

    #65597
    Profile photo of Roadkill
    Roadkill
    Participant

    In my home town years ago we had park police which were apart from our regular street cops. One of these guys was a badass martial artist who with his merry band of martial artists would rob drug houses. Dynamic entries just like this. They would dress in paramilitary kit, make the raid, then instead of arresting anyone they would steal there shit and leave. The drug dealers going to call the police? Not so much. Eventually through the grapevine word got out and these guys got caught. So, you never know who is coming through your door. I have a 700 foot driveway, I’ve taken those garage door safety lights and wired them across it to a doorbell in my house. At least I have a little warning. Kind of a cheap intrusion alarm. Hard wired, not radio.
    No knock warrants are the difference between a law enforcement officer and a peace officer. I don’t even think they call them peace officers any more.

    RS/CTT Nov 16
    HEAT1 Aug18

    #65598
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    How the fuck anyone is supposed to know that it’s NOT a home invasion is beyond me.

    There have been many cases where citizens have killed LEO’s and its been ruled justified, all of these involved arrest and significant legal expense to get to that result.

    I’ve wondered about this before, how is one to know who is breaking in your door and swarming in? Someone kicks in my door, no knock, no uniform…

    Even in uniform it may not go well!

    In my case potential problems include…

    Door crashes, dogs barking and attacking, I run to the sound with weapon in hand…

    It doesn’t end well!

    Then we throw in other factors like limited lighting, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, ect…

    It isn’t as clear cut as many would portray it!

    Note: Despite my comment about there being instances where LEO’s have been shot legally based on their poor judgement on those specific instances. This Forum is not anti LEO and never has been, we are very supportive of Law Enforcement. However we also have never been adverse to calling out poor judgement and/or unlawful activities by anyone regardless of their position!

    “Cop bashing” for the sake of it has never been tolerated.

    #65600
    Profile photo of Lloyd
    shooter
    Participant

    …They would dress in paramilitary kit, make the raid, then instead of arresting anyone they would steal there shit and leave. The drug dealers going to call the police? Not so much…

    A few years ago there was a “gang” of cops in South Texas running a similar racket where they’d pocket cash, weapons and drugs would be resold. If I remember the story right, the leader was a city cop whose father was the County Sheriff.

    ---

    We are all victims of our perspective.

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