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Immunizations – yes??, no?? what’s the cost

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  • #66217
    Profile photo of wheelseewheelsee
    Participant

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/433160-unvaccinated-6-year-old-boy-from-oregon-was-states-first-tetanus-case-in

    The cost listed was OVER $800K…..excluding air medical, rehab, and followups…….

    If you think these diseases are eradicated, gone, no longer a threat – you’re mistaken……and at what cost?? to yourself, to your family, to your community, to society??

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #66223
    Profile photo of BrigandActualBrigandActual
    Participant

    When I hear some of these people talk, it always reminds me of this scene…

    "Man is still the first weapon of war" - Field Marshal Montgomery

    Matt B - VA

    #66224
    Profile photo of BradyBunchBradyBunch
    Participant

    Gardisil has taken my daughter from a competitive 17yr old swimmer to a stay at home invalid practically, so the type of vaccine needs to be discussed as to priority of mandate. I am pissed, since I can prove the HPV vaccine has directly affected her life for the worse.

    #66225
    Profile photo of Idaho Cajunidahocajun
    Participant

    @bradybunch you have a great point. The Gardisil vaccine is definitely known to cause substantial side effects. The premise was to prevent Cervical cancer caused by certain strains of HPV, but the cost has been high based on experiences like your daughters. I’ll be interested to see the epidemiological data on cancer rates post Gardisil to see if it made any damn difference. Now, with that being said…the childhood vaccines: Pneumococcal, MMR, Varicella, Polio, Hep A, etc have all been shown to be extremely safe and reduce significant disease risk. As a healthcare professional, I find no argument against childhood vaccinations such as these defensible. You could argue I’m set in my perspective the same
    way the antivaxers are and am no different. However, I’ve watched children and adults die from Influenza. I’ve seen cases of severe measles. I’ve treated entire families for Pertusus as recently as last year. I 100% agree that the premise of the vaccine needs to be taken into account for the argument, your point on a Gardisil is very founded and a great example. As for the childhood vaccines against diseases that can be catastrophic…there’s only one solution, vaccinate.

    #66227
    Profile photo of Max VelocityMax
    Keymaster

    After initially being scared by an5i-vaxxer rhetoric, we ensure we vaccinate our kids and get the flu-shot. My wife did however make the pediatrician give the combined kids vaccines separately, broken up. We do disagree with the way vaccines are given in the US, as a combination.

    One question / curosiry we have is about the possible presence of aborted fetus cells in vaccines. Is there any truth to that, and how do we get options which don’t?

    #66230
    Profile photo of Idaho Cajunidahocajun
    Participant

    @Max

    Tried to respond to this twice before.

    (Joe (G.W.N.S.) I do not no why it rejected your first two attempts, but when I fixed it ended up latter in thread. :unsure: )

    Long and short no fetal cells are in the vaccines. However fetal cell lines from the 1960’s are utilized for virus incubation and vaccine production:

    https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/fetal-tissues

    Happy to discuss more, as there is a TON of misinformation out there.

    #66231
    Profile photo of Barry Andersongatlinggun
    Participant

    Both of my daughters were born at home with an “old order” mid-wife attending. Neither of my daughters (19 and 13 yo) have been vaxxed nor will they. We eat right, live right, and trust God for our health (no plague shall come nigh thy dwelling, Psalm 91:10).

    I have no problem with vaccines, as long as it is a CHOICE. If the statists make vaxxing mandatory, then I will NOT comply.

    YMMV

    When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.

    CTT 08/15

    #66237
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    When I hear some of these people talk, it always reminds me of this scene…

    I think you’ll find that the people picked to be interviewed are screened much like many 2nd Amendment supporters are, the nutcases that depict chosen stereotypes.

    There are many that make a compelling and reasoned argument against some vaccinations that’s as reasoned as a pro-vaccination argument.

    My wife did however make the pediatrician give the combined kids vaccines separately, broken up.

    I’ve heard this is a wise choice.

    For me regardless of your point of view there is one question to be asked!

    Do you support Rightful Liberty?

    If you do then it doesn’t matter whether you consider vaccinations good or bad for there is no greater demonstration of personal freedom than deciding what goes into your body or that of your children’s bodies!

    #66228
    Profile photo of Idaho Cajunidahocajun
    Participant

    @Max, this is a bit complicated to answer. The short, yes fetal fibroblast cells are used for certain vaccines. These were obtained in the 1960’s and are still utilized today. They aren’t obtaining fresh cell lines from a recently aborted fetus. There seems to be a TON of misinformation out there. Here Are some links for detail/perspective:

    https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/fetal-tissues

    https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/human-cell-strains-vaccine-development

    So long and short, yes there are certain vaccines which utilize cells previously obtained from aborted fetus to incubate the virus. These cells are NOT present in the vaccines.

    #66240
    Profile photo of Idaho Cajunidahocajun
    Participant

    @Joe

    “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”- Thomas Jefferson

    At what point do we draw the lines when individual choices can adversely affect the lives of others, in essence violating those individuals rights? Not saying there’s an easy answer. Not saying vaccines should be federally mandated and required. Just spurring the discussion more. Part of the reason the last major Ebola outbreak couldn’t be contained was the safeguards in place weren’t followed by the locals. Hell, there was even discussion over the nurse who came back to the US under house watch having their rights violated because they wanted to go out:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna449491

    When it comes to communicable diseases, I think the lines get gray for me. Personal choices can make huge impacts on the lives of others. At what point do those choices constitute a violation of others rights? Take the original
    story. 6 yo contracts a disease not seen in 30 years, nearly kills him. A PREVENTABLE disease. Does the parents choice to not vaccinate constitute a violation of his rights? You spank your child now a days and CPS shows up…or fail to seek medical attention for your child that could otherwise be treated constitutes as child abuse in most states. As I said before, I don’t have the answers. I 100% support
    Rightful liberty, but there are limits to personal choice when it affects the rights of others. Great discussion Joe! Thanks for spurring it on!!!

    #66242
    Profile photo of RobRoyRobRoy
    Participant

    There is always a cost. Who here wants polio? I didn’t think so.

    I paid the price for that. In the third grade my class had its polio vaccination at school, 45 days later I could not walk and had to drag myself across the floor, all the adults in my family were scared shitless 4 days later back to being a third grader. Then 45 days later could not walk again and that lasted 4 days, but that was the last episode.

    #66244
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    At what point do we draw the lines when individual choices can adversely affect the lives of others, in essence violating those individuals rights? Not saying there’s an easy answer.

    In the context of vaccinations, if the vaccine is effective then the only threat is to the unvaccinated. So if I; or those I make decisions for, get a particular illness after refusing to participate in that specific vaccination it’s effect is to me alone. Of course once aware of a communicable illness I would self quarantine and notify those I have been in contact with. Now if I knowingly play carrier then I could be subject to other responsibilities.

    Remember it wasn’t uncommon to purposely expose children to things like Chickenpox to get it over with as a child vice getting it as an adult which was a greater threat.

    Now much of the pro-vaccination argument is based on the relative safety of a particular vaccination.

    Such arguments do not mean much to those that experience harmful side effects as stated by BradyBunch or even short term complications described by RobRoy.

    I have known many people who have chosen not to or a limited vaccination route and have not experienced any of the illnesses that vaccines prevented.

    Anecdotal for sure, but giving the shear number of people choosing to not vaccinate I have yet to see any conclusive data demonstrating a huge increase in diseases that can’t be explained as easily by the influx of unvaccinated illegal immigrants as by those choosing not to vaccinate.

    For information sake, my children were all vaccinated. Though this was around thirty years ago. ;-)

    That said I avoided the “Flu Shots” while in active duty after experiencing significant illness afterwards. Despite not having typical explanations for it I have gotten very ill after every such vaccination. I couldn’t refuse such shots, but I was very successful in avoiding them and have not gotten them since retirement and have avoided the flu. ;-)

    I also felt the Anthrax vaccine series was not worth the number of significant adverse reactions by a large number of military members. These included long-term debilitating illness.

    Great discussion Joe! Thanks for spurring it on!!!

    That is what has always set the MVT Forum apart from others, we are capable of rational discussion of controversial topics in an adult manner!

    I remain opposed to Goverment mandated vaccinations!

    #66247
    Profile photo of wheelseewheelsee
    Participant

    So the logical next question, at least for me, is – if one chooses NOT to be vaccinated (as in the original post), what is society’s obligation to pay (care) for the negative consequences for said decision?

    IOW, parents choose NOT to vaccinate themselves or their children. Said adult or child contracts disease which would have been prevented by a simple, cheap vaccination recommended by the public health department. What is society’s obligation, if any, to pay for said consequences?? This question, the individual paying for their consequences, is one of the big questions in the business of health care (NOT the delivery, but the 2nd or 3rd order effects of “freedom of choice”).

    (I do believe that if society recommends an immunization, and someone suffers ill effects of, we, as a society, are obligated to pay for the care of those ill effects).

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #66257
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    So the logical next question, at least for me, is – if one chooses NOT to be vaccinated (as in the original post), what is society’s obligation to pay (care) for the negative consequences for said decision?

    I of course believe in personal responsibility, so individual or their insurance.

    (I do believe that if society recommends an immunization, and someone suffers ill effects of, we, as a society, are obligated to pay for the care of those ill effects).

    Cold comfort to said victim! ;-)

    Vaccine manufacturers have immunity from responsibility even if they knowingly put out a bad product. Though typically they send corrupted vaccinations to poor third world recipients. :wacko:

    #66260
    Profile photo of JohnnyMacJohnnyMac
    Participant

    Vaccine manufacturers have immunity from responsibility even if they knowingly put out a bad product.

    As someone in the pharma industry, vaccine manufacturers routinely destroy product that does not adhere to very tight requirements or process controls/documentation. Sometimes, it borders on craziness. Vaccine manufacturers are routinely over-conservative and do not take risks. I would go so far as to say it is the tightest regulated industry. I’m not saying mistakes don’t happen, but there are VAST controls in place- that includes international markets.

    Not directed at you Joe, but I think there’s a common belief that pharma companies are somehow nefarious, ill-intentioned, predatory, etc. It’s totally not the case.

    #66261
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Not directed at you Joe, but I think there’s a common belief that pharma companies are somehow nefarious, ill-intentioned, predatory, etc. It’s totally not the case.

    No problem. :-)

    I am not one of the “Evil Pharma” crowd! ;-)

    Globally not everyone is on the same page agenda wise. There have been cases of individuals, companies, and governments using immunizations for hidden agendas.

    When taking as a whole this represents a relatively small number of events. Again “small” is poor comfort for those affected.

    Our own Government has conducted experiments over the years without consent of victims.

    None of this is to make us paranoid, but we need to be open-minded and not blind followers.

    In this context I don’t take just any medical recommendation for action without prudent research on my part.

    Additionally I am very reluctant to use the latest and greatest new “whatever” drug/immunization until it’s history is well established.

    Regardless of trials conducted.

    My previously mentioned military anthrax vaccination series has some questionable quality control issues, that may have been the source of bad reactions.

    My steadfast point is I won’t be forced and I alone determine what’s best for me. I will not be ruled by fear, but will be open to weigh pros and cons of any giving product.

    #66267
    Profile photo of JohnnyMacJohnnyMac
    Participant

    Additionally I am very reluctant to use the latest and greatest new “whatever” drug/immunization until it’s history is well established.

    It is true that sometimes after release, some additional side effects are found (they are either really rare, hence why they didn’t get found in clinical trials, or benign enough that they went unnoticed in trials). It’s also worth mentioning that fairly often, a pharma product is developed to treat one condition, but they later determine it can be used to treat other stuff (bonus!). In other words, it’s a two way street. Also, there are always outliers, in any situation. The approval process today is pretty stringent though.

    I won’t be forced

    I’m pretty firm in my belief we shouldn’t be forced to, or forced from, doing anything that doesn’t infringe on the rights of others. And I guess that’s the heart of this debate- is immunization (or lack thereof) infringing on the rights of others. In that light, I think it’s a grey area. Vaccines are not 100% effective, but will greatly reduce the likelihood of infection (to varying degrees). When someone picks up a contagion, they become a vector. If you choose not to be immunized, and catch that contagion (chances are much higher), you are still putting other people (who may be immunized, at risk), without knowingly doing it. I would say at the very least it’s negligent. I’m neither a doctor nor a lawyer, but to me it seems fair that there should be some penalty (higher insurance payment? insurance not covering costs if not vaccinated? I don’t know) when the non-vaccinated lose that bet and (inadvertently) harm others.

    #66268
    Profile photo of RobertRobert
    Participant

    I don’t agree with the “we are going to shove 40 vaxs in your NEWBORN the day it’s born” BS.

    Back when we were kids, you didn’t get your jabs till not long before you went to skewl- 5 or 6’ish.

    We went to a local hospital for a “Lamont’s” class (LOL) and the 400 lbs. nurse teaching the class reeled off this list of vaccines they would give newborns the day they were born, which included Hep C. I asked “well since my newborn isn’t likely to be getting busy (sex) or shooting up right off the bat, why are you giving Hep C?” She couldn’t answer. I asked about another couple ones and why were they ALL given on the day of birth? She got all pissed and said “if you have your baby in this hospital WE WHEEEL (southern for “will”) give your baby these vaccines the day he is born.” I smiled and said “wheeel, I guess we won’t be having our baby here”

    That’s nutty, day of birth and a ton of vaxs that day including shit they in no way needed? We had J somewhere else and had only a few done over time.

    The other thing to remember is now they are saying pertusis is only good for around 10 years. A few years back the family got sick as a dog- throwing up, crazy coughing, etc. but it didn’t touch me. A few years before I was helping a friend and got a rusty nail in my foot so went and got a tetanus shot- only they don’t do JUST tetanus anymore- DPT all together. I was the only one in the family that didn’t come down with pertusis. Asked our doc WTH over since both of them had DPT and he said only good for 10 years if that now.

    They had a helluva time with pertusis.

    It’s a mixed decision- you don’t want to put too much foreign shit in your body, but the country is being flooded with tons of people from third world countries that still harbor some of these things.

    www.jrhenterprises.com
    RMP, TC3, NODF, CRCD 6/14, CP 9/14. NODF, Land Nav, 6/15. Rifleman Challenge 9/15- Vanguard. FOFtactics 3/16, 10/16, 11/16, 6/17,11/17 CTT, 6/15, 11/16, , LRMC-1 9/17 GA Mobile CTT and DA 10/16, GA mobile DCH 3/18, HEAT1 3/18 Alum weekend 8/18, Opfor CLC 10/18, DA 11/18 CQBC 12/18

    #66269
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    …I think it’s a grey area.

    I see it more clear cut, no one is guaranteed to have no adversity in life.

    Now if a person knowingly infected interacts with others that’s one level of irresponsibility, but isn’t the person who says it can’t be “X” since I’ve been vaccinated and continues his public interaction without diagnosis just as irresponsible.

    Of course we throw about the term “Right,” but does anyone have the Right to be germ/virus free in public?

    I have no such expectation, anymore than this Socialistic notion that free speech ends if it insults someone! :yes:

    Do I have a Right of safety from anything?

    Of course not!

    I believe we are seeing some Socialist ideological corruption of our language here.

    So let’s change the use of Right to expectation.

    Does anyone have the “expectation” to be germ/virus free in public?

    Maybe if they are a special kind of snowflake! ;-)

    Does anyone have the “expectation” to be safe in anything?

    Living involves many risks which we can mitigate by our choices, but should I expect you to mitigate my risks?

    Should you now be responsible for my safety?

    Sounds too much like a Socialist Utopia to me! B-)

    #66275
    Profile photo of Idaho Cajunidahocajun
    Participant

    @Robert

    If someone told you there is a Hep C vaccine…they’re just stupid. We do vaccinate at birth for Hep B, and there is a Hep A vaccine given later if in an endemic area. However, to my knowledge there is no Hep C vaccine.

    Now, as to the actual number of vaccines, here is the current schedule and recommendations:

    https://redbook.solutions.aap.org/selfserve/ssPage.aspx?SelfServeContentId=Immunization_Schedules

    Most come in a combination shot, my daughters 2 months were 3 shots and an oral one. Not trying to argue your stance, which is sound, but wanna make sure the facts are present.

    JohnnyMac is correct. Big Pharma has strict regulations regarding this stuff and in all honesty, vaccines are NOT the money maker that the blue pill is.

    As for the rightful liberty argument, I 100% believe in personal responsibility and consequences for actions. However all of my years in the ER have shown me that’s NOT the way most of the people in this country operate. It’s always someone else’s fault and responsibility.

    #66276
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    However all of my years in the ER have shown me that’s NOT the way most of the people in this country operate. It’s always someone else’s fault and responsibility.

    I believe our societies ignorance on many levels will be corrected relatively soon. Unfortunately this steep learning curve will be horrific in execution.

    As an optimist at least this sifting will be beneficial to those who survive. ;-)

    #66277
    Profile photo of Wysharpshooter79Wysharpshooter79
    Participant

    Howdy Folks,
    Im going to have to agree with Joe on this. We had out first daughter in a hospital in Oregon. We didnt know it at the time, but they gave hep b shots to newborns at birth and one was given to her when she was taken out of the room for her checks. The result of this shot? My daughter who is now 14 years old has full blown autism and will not be able to live on her own by herself for the rest of her life. There is no way she got autism any other way, we have sent blood samples off to Baylor University and there was no historical reason for this happening. Needless to say, our other daughters did not get shots and they have been fine. And I take responsibility along with my wife for this decision to not vaccinate and for my daughters health. I also take responsibility in not being informed enough and reading the vaccine manufacturers handouts where it actually says injury or death is possible with these shots. If I would have done my part, I would have been informed, she would have not have left my sight, not got the shot, and not been disabled today.

    So if the vaccine manufacturers own handouts state that injury or death could result, how many people are we willing to injure or sacrifice for the greater good? To me all human life is sacred unto God and its not up to me to decide who pays the price so I can feel safe. I take responsibility for my decisions for me, and my children while they are under my care. If your family is vaccinated, then my unvaccinated family is no longer a threat to yours if vaccines actually work. Just remember that we have been lied to before, you have to do the research and decide what is best for you and yours. I have done this, wish I would have done it sooner. My decision has been made, no more vaccines and we will not be forced either.

    #66278
    Profile photo of Wysharpshooter79Wysharpshooter79
    Participant

    One other thing, so the anti vax information out there is labeled a “misinformation campaign”. So who is spreading this “misinformation” and for what purpose? Could it be the Russians are doing this so americans die off and they can invade and take us over? Arent we bordering on conspiracy theory here? How do we know?
    This is a slippery slope, isolating a group (anti-vaxxers) from the rest of society. Whats next, do we pass a law that their children are taken? Maybe just round them up in camps like the japanese in WW2. Where do you draw the line at?

    #66286
    Profile photo of Idaho Cajunidahocajun
    Participant

    @Wysharpshooter79

    I am truly sorry to hear about your daughter. The infant Hep B vaccine given between 1991 and 2004 was linked to a 3 fold increased in autism. Not publicized by any means, but your case is 100% legitimate and your family is not alone.

    Along the lines of “misinformation.” Information and sharing of knowledge is not inherently a bad thing. However, if in the hands of people looking to push an agenda without any altruistic thought for individual rights, that information can be skewed and cause harm…the spin so to speak. We see this all the time from multiple fronts: big pharma, medical professionals, antivaccination movements, etc. The truth so to speak is buried in there somewhere. I don’t think there is any conspiracy theory, people simply choose to interpret things from their own perspective (Insert Obi-Wan Kanobi speech from Empire Strikes Back-truth from a certain point of view). There is a certain amount of bias present in everything we do. I 100% support vaccines but with the knowledge that they are not 100% safe. So in a way, I already have bias against anyone who doesn’t support vaccines. I approach them with the same respect they show my choices. However, if someone wants to engage in an informed, collegial discussion I will always be willing to hear what they have to say. And a lot of the time learn something new. I also agree, we shouldn’t isolate any single group or lump them all into one category such as “anti-vaxxers”. In the end, if you or your family showed up in my ER, I would treat you to the best of my training and abilities regardless of your choice to vaccinate…I firmly believe as a physician I can’t let any prejudice interfere with my patient care, but not all physicians are the same in that regard.

    In the end, it comes down to what we in medicine call informed consent. Don’t ever give your consent blindly unless it is someone you 100% trust with your life. Make sure you look at all the information available but also be aware of the bias out there. Internal bias (personal beliefs) also play as big a role as external bias (information from all fronts, medical, pharmaceutical, anti-vaccination movements, etc). Be ready to accept the consequences of those decisions.

    #66287
    Profile photo of Max VelocityMax
    Keymaster

    Bravo chaps! I am very proud of the quality of dialogue that we are able to maintain on this forum! B-)

    #66299
    Profile photo of Wysharpshooter79Wysharpshooter79
    Participant

    Idahocajun,
    Thanks for the condolences with respect to my daughter. It is appreciated.
    From reading your response I think we can agree on vaccine choice. If you have done your research and you feel to have your children vaccinated is in their best interest, that is your right as their parent and protector to do so. Same as me, my wife and I have done our research and it is not in our familys best interest to do so. There will always be extremists on both sides. Some people refuse to vaccinate just to refuse. The other extreme says parents that dont vaccinate are endangering their kids and should have them taken. I dont think parents should be forced to or not to vaccinate. This is our responsibility as parents to decide what is best for our children, it is also our God given right.
    I think you would find that the majority of the folks on the anti-vax side are like my wife and I, people that had children vaccinated by accident or made the choice to vaccinate, then their child was injured. What we want is for our stories to be heard not for sympathy, but to inform other parents so they just dont hear one side of the story and can make an informed decision. Unfortunately, some folks on the pro side (not saying you do) for some reason see this as a threat, and label it misinformation, fake news, etc. We see this on other issues as well. What this means is we must take responsibility, think for ourselves, do the research and make an informed decision. It is when this right to decide for my children is infringed and people may try to make vaccinations mandatory, that I will not comply. The fact that we researched why my daughter has autism, may not just have saved my disabled daughter from dying outright, but saved my other children from being disabled as well. Also we must consider that several times throughout history, things that have been labled misinformation were not that far off.
    One other aspect of this to consider is not just how the injured child is affected, but also the whole family. For example, my wife was changing diapers on our daughter till she was 8 years old, she couldnt toilet train till then. My other daughters sometimes are sad because our oldest sometimes cant relate to them and would rather go play by herself than spend time with her sisters. Me as a father wishes I could fix things or go back and change the way things happened but cant. Again, not looking for sympathy, just stating facts. There is also the financial aspect as well, such as therapy costs etc.
    I guess the main idea of all this is that these kind of decisions should remain the responsibility of us as parents. The state should not become the parent, making the decision for us by making vaccines mandatory. It sounds like you have done your research to the best of your ability. You have made your decision that vaccines are ok, I have no problem with that at all.
    Sorry for the long drawn out letter here, not good at getting my thoughts out sometimes.
    On a lighter note, by your screen name I assume you are from Louisiana. I am also, good to see some good old Louisiana folk out here in this neck of the woods! :good:

    #66437
    Profile photo of MTIDAHOMTJack
    Participant

    My daughter has Autism. Every day has its own challenges. However, I do not in any way shape or form think Autism is linked to vaccines… this is based on my own observations and research trying to get to the why of my daughters autism. You child has autism before they get a vaccine. There is not a single proof point other than really bad and debunked science of a single publisher that makes any other case.

    The best fact pattern that I have decided on is: I really don’t know root cause.

    However, I could chalk it up too:
    1. My wife’s diet of McDonald Cheese burgers, while pregnant.
    2. Exposure to certain pollutants and/or environmental toxins.
    3. Evolutionary “luck”

    I believe in vaccines because of the self-evidence in the world population; as you are not dead because of the diseases they protect against. However, people in other countries who are not vaccinated have lots of deaths because of the lack of vaccines. I have seen this first hand and it is not pretty.

    Bottom line a vaccination is the best survival strategy and has nothing to do with control or conspiracy. The same logic applies to antibiotics. If you believe in antibiotics and not vaccines, then you have to evaluate why? Though they are for different causes it is the same body that says antibiotics are good for X and Vaccines are good for Y and antifungals are good for Z. Why believe only in 2 out of the 3?

    If you are not vaccinated, you are not welcomed at my place… You are free to choose. However, I am free to associate.

    From my ranch in Idaho…

    I'm a scumbag so you can be secure... Hire a good Red Team.

    #66442
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    There is not a single proof point other than really bad and debunked science of a single publisher that makes any other case.

    Really…

    The infant Hep B vaccine given between 1991 and 2004 was linked to a 3 fold increased in autism.

    …from our own discussion here.

    …nothing to do with control or conspiracy.

    Perhaps your bringing baggage from other Forums discussions, as I see no such discussion here.

    Your antibiotic/antifungal comparison makes little sense to me other than some have side effects that need consideration as well.

    Vaccines like many things have risks, an informed decision seems prudent.

    Lastly there was no implication that the sole cause of autism is vaccines.

    #66446
    Profile photo of Idaho Cajunidahocajun
    Participant

    @MTJack

    I think your point on disease cause and effect is spot on! There is rarely a single cause for disease like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. It’s a combination of environmental factors coupled with genetic predisposition. Now, do vaccines cause autism, the answer is no! There is no direct cause and effect. However there is one study from the National Institute of Health linking a 3x higher incidence of autism with infant Hep B vaccine during a specific time periods:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21058170/

    Now, to your point, are vaccines safe? No more than anything else we put into our bodies. Antibiotics are not 100% safe. I’ve seen allergic reactions, kidney damage, liver damage, etc all related to antibiotic use. What it truly comes down to is cost/benefit. Is the treatment risk greater than the risk of the untreated disease? I deal with this decision daily.

    To your point on vaccines. Herd immunity is a legitimate thing and in some regards the only way a vaccine reaches maximal effect. Being vaccinated is not a 100% guarantee against any disease, but can lessen the impact, etc. It comes down to informed consent, but also the public health impacts have to be taken into consideration. It’s a fine line, protecting individual rights but also protecting public health.

    Just my thoughts, not worth much.

    #66447
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    For information sake, my children were all vaccinated. Though this was around thirty years ago. ;-)

    Thought it prudent as a reminder I am not anti-vaccine, but support individual freedom of choice.

    Though as stated I no longer participate in flu vaccination due to a history of complications.

    My grandchildren are a mix with some of my kids choosing to vaccinate and some not. As the parents of those grandchildren I support my children’s ability to choose what they feel is appropriate.

    For me that’s the essence of Rightful Liberty in this context. ;-)

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