- This topic has 35 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 1 month ago by Anonymous.
March 19, 2014 at 12:25 am #603USMC0331Participant
If you need a sniper/overwatch in a team then a bolt gun with enough ammo for the mission on top of the patrol rifle makes more sense than having a heavyweight as your primary.
If the mission drives the gear, what mission requires a team member to hump an AR10 or any other semi-auto .30cal to accomplish it? Is it worth trading commonality of arms/ammo for a team member to do so?
If we were talking a belt-fed, there would be no argument, but that is another animal and does make a significant difference on a battle field.
It’s got nothing to do with caliber for me, it’s about practicality and mission specific gear. If you are going past 500/600 then get the most bang for your buck and go 300WIN or larger.
NOTE: I don’t see a resistance movement in the USA as ever being a reality and base my answers and scenarios on SHTF scenarios, namely a small fire-team for protection of several families on one location.
Perhaps you can elaborate on the scenario you see it being used in?
Good points. I find a lot of arguments about gear and skill are best put to rest on a clock and during a test. One thing I know for sure is that if you are not out there doing it weekly or at least monthly, and doing it in full kit… You are kidding yourself.
"Do nothing which is of no use." - (MM) Gal 5:19-21 -(God)March 19, 2014 at 11:11 am #626BaldrickParticipant
My personal thought development over the last year regarding this topic (and this is a needed and godo discussion to have).
I had an AR, setup to be as light as possible, setup for me to shoot. I then got into precision shooting a little bit, and built a nice Remington 700 in 308, developed a handload, added a custom barrel, had it bedded, had a trigger guard to take AICS mags, etc. I had it decked out with everything you need to make consistent repeatble hits at 7-800 yds (and shooting at that range is some of the most fun I’ve ever had with my pants on).
I hike/backpack fairly regularly as well. I schlepped this rifle, weighing in at almost 15 lbs with that 24 inch bull barrel, and hated every minute of it. AICS mags are also very heavy due to durability. Maybe I’m just a pussy, but that’s too much, and it was all at the front end of the rifle, which meant it didn’t sling well. If you gave me 20 seconds to get setup I could probably make a 600 yd hit depending on how out of breath I was AND if I had a good supported position, but that was about all it was good for. The weight dispersion and my choice of optics made the rifle almost no good for offhand shots inside 200 yds, or really offhand shots at any distance. But that’s why I had an AR.
Then I went to Max’s class. I had done drills like that before, but putting the pieces together from that along with the SUT emphasis on sustainability and rucking from the blog made me reconsider. I don’t care to have an extra 12-15 lb rifle on my back for “just in case”. I realized if my team came under contact and I was the “sniper” (used loosely) I would be almost zero good at returning fire, and fighting through or breaking contact with that rifle. Granted, I wouldn’t want to have someone shooting at me 800 yds away with my Remington 700, but in a dynamic environment with no arty, no air, and no reinforcments, just potentially my family or a few friends, I don’t want to be holding a long and unwieldy bolt gun, no matter how good it is at 1000 yds. If we are operating in vehicles that’s a different story because I don’t have to carry it. And I could use it for a fixed emplacement with other people to support me. But I wouldn’t take it on a patrol.
So I sold it, and built an 18 inch medium weight barrel AR after the CRCD. I can run and gun with it, and it has a 2.5-10x scope on there that has a daytime visible reticle and BUIS. I can make a 600 yd shot with that rifle, but if I came under contact at 50 yds and had to fight through or break contact I wouldn’t really be impeded. That has become the filter through which I do rifles now. Yes I want a gun that can do whatever (long range, DMR, CQB, etc) and I can tailor a gun to be useful for that, but it has to be able to play ball in a contact situation. So my “sniper rifle/long range precision rig” now is an AR, lightweight enough for rocking and rolling, but with an optic and barrel that maximizes the range of the platform. I handload 77 gr SMKs that are excellent rounds. One more reason I did another AR is I am teaching my wife some of this stuff and I want her to on the same page with me. She needed an AR she could use well.
This is not a caliber issue that I’m speaking to, but rather having a basic requirement of POU for a weapon, that you can then add other purposes onto the POU. Again, this is my frame of mind currently. So if I could get a nice 16 inch 308 AR, like a LaRue, or better yet something else like a SCAR that you can still run and gun with but also reach out with, then I would run one of those in a second (I just can’t cough up the money now to outfit one and feed it). Once you get up past that 10 lb unloaded area it starts to be an issue for me. A REPR, or SASS type setup is a fat whore compared to some of the trimmer options like a Larue or SCAR. YMMV. I’m not trying to flame anyone here, just sharing how my thinking has evolved on the issue.
Cheers all and keep up discussion!
BaldrickMarch 19, 2014 at 11:23 am #627BaldrickParticipant
Adding to that, to put brass tacks on a 556 or 308 option, For an AR a Mk12 or “recce” configuration, with a 14.5, 16 or 18 inch barrel using good ammo with a low powered variable optic (1-4, 1-6, 3-9, 2-10), or a SIG 516, Larue OBR type, SCAR 17, lightweight FAL variant etc with a similar optic is great. When you get into the 2 lb adjustable sniper stocks, the long heavy rails, and the thick and heavy barrels any platform, 223 ARs included, IMO, starts to lose it react to contact capability. On a team, I would say one guy in 8 has one. or if you don’t have eight, then still just one guy. YMMV. I run regular ammo through my 18 inch rifle, and have a few 20 rd mags of my handloads in a special place on my rig so that I I have opportunity to take a long shot, I can load it with my good ammo and make a first round hit.March 19, 2014 at 4:54 pm #662MaxKeymaster
Some discussion above on caliber, this I believe supports my choice of .308.
Comments?March 20, 2014 at 12:22 am #734DiznNCParticipant
Danie brings up some good points here. We’re talking about fighting vs shooting. Caliber n shit don’t matter if you’re not up to it.
If you really want to back out the focus onto the larger issue of what really matters in an unconventional warfare arena, it could be argued that the weapons/caliber used, and even the marksmanship (or lack there-of) are largely irrelevant at the strategic level. Look at all the insurgencies where the “G’s” hardly won a battle, but won the war because of “world opinion” and other forces at work. I used to laugh my ass off at the coverage of the Arab uprisings in the various countries around the globe. Jump up, fire off the AK or RPG and duck back. Repeat until news cameras get a good shot of you. That news footage is more important than anything our erstwhile freedom fighter did all day. It showed for all the world to see that the current regime is full of shit in denying there is any serious problem.
So oftentimes type and caliber of weapon (not to mention BRM) is not really important in the scheme of things. That being said, I think we can all agree that our standards are a bit higher than the world average. Not to be a condescending prick, but we take more pride in our rifle marksmanship, and it shows.
But back to the OP, while I agree it’s a good idea to have some DMR in the mix, and even 7.62 to spice things up, I also think that for the general rank and file, having a battle-proven 5.56 rifle, in the same pattern as the opfor makes the most sense. This is a central tenant in unconventional warfare. If we aren’t going to have any outside sources supplying us with arms, then we need what’s available, and sustainable. And that means what the opfor has.
CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, RiflemanMarch 20, 2014 at 10:09 am #749AnonymousInactive
Some discussion above on caliber, this I believe supports my choice of .308.
Read the entire paper. A loty of information.
Interesting points about incapacitating issues with smaller Ammo.
Also what really stuck in my mind were the problems with re-chambered ammo.
It may take a re-read to fully digest implications.
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