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Jack Donovan: Follow Up

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  • #42345
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I previously posted about Jack Donovan’s ‘The Way of Men.’ I have since read his ‘Becoming a Barbarian’ and I just took a snow day to read his collection of essays ‘A Sky Without Eagles’ (ASWE).

    I’m following up here, because when I first posted about this, there was some wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    First off, I don’t find much to disagree with in what he writes. It would be an understatement to say that he highlights my disgust with our modern society. I enjoy what he writes about globalist universalism / feminism and all that.

    He has some interesting points in ASWE about the traditional way of viewing politics as ‘right’ and ‘left,’ instead preferring to look at things in terms of horizontal and vertical. Horizontal being the traditional female view of the world, following on from his points about the ‘bonobo masturbatory society’ and vertical being the male aspirational view.

    I do not take his writings as anti-woman. His concern is to lay out what he considers is the right way for men. He does this. I also don’t think that he is advocating conflict between men and women, but more of a return to traditional realistic roles. At one point in an essay in ASWE he refers to domestic arrangements which will be as they are – but my takeaway was that it would be hopefully untainted by emasculated males and females deranged by modern feminism.

    One fly in the ointment for me was to discover that he is a homosexual. This did not sit right with me at first, not for a man writing the things he does. But there appears little wrong with what he writes. He has declared that he ‘fucks men like they are women’ so he is hardly an effeminate gay. He appears to be more like a ‘alpha gay’ – perhaps your worst nightmare in a prison cell unless you were man enough yourself to stop the threat! For a time it sort of ruined his writings for me, because he was not all he appeared to be, at least not in my mind as to what a real man should be. But he still writes well and makes a lot of sense. He does declare that he has ‘little use for women’ in ASWE and this may show a weakness in his writings – because the rest of us do have a use for women. Is there misogyny there? Maybe? His homosexuality may give him a perspective where he can more readily throw away the contribution of women, even though (or because) his concern is to write about the proper way for men. I’m not going to stop reading him due to this flaw.

    One thing I have noticed, to follow on from the point above, is that he is somewhat disparaging about Fatherhood. Probably because he will never be one. Fatherhood is everything to me, and an inherent part of the point of being a man, and of family, and clan, and tribe, and all that. Yes it is true that in today’s world of shitty men, any slob can ‘crawl onto a woman and dribble his sperm into them’ to make a baby. But that misses the point – it is not simply about inseminating a woman, but about being a real father, and having a family. Without that, it is nothing. This appears to be another flaw in his reasoning, due to his inherent flaw of being a homosexual.

    Last time I posted here at The Way of Men (TWOM) there was much consternation. People became alarmed. I was wisely counseled that he was almost a white supremacist. People expected me to start loading others into box cars. There is actually an essay in ASWE that addresses this, and a speech that he gave to a white supremacist group. He declares that he is not one, and some of them hate him (the homosexuality?), but that he sympathizes with it. He states this in a way that is really another statement at odds with modern cultural Marxism/feminism, which really comes down to hatred of the white male. He simply thinks that there should be nothing wrong with promoting your own group, which does not mean hatred of other groups. Given that other groups in the US are able to promote themselves, but white males are not, becasue we are ‘evil.’ There is a good paragraph in there about honoring and being proud of our ancestors and the cultural traditions. And I feel exactly that way.

    And isn’t this really the point? To break with the current societal paradigm? I am not saying I am a white supremacist, but I am saying that I am not afraid to tout my pride in the achievements of my ancestors. I have no hate for anyone of other ethnic groups and will judge, and take, everyone as they show themselves to me. BUT OF COURSE in today’s society if you espouse anything along the lines of Donovan’s writings you are clearly an evil heretic and must be destroyed. Thus, I urge you to read the books and look at them from a fresh perspective. Because if you cannot do that, then you are truly lost.

    I always thought RRS here on the forum was a bit of a nut (sorry) with his talk of emasculated Christian culture and ‘virtue signalling’ nagging wives. But now I get it. Good stuff RRS. Reading this stuff is a journey to unpack those thoughts that lay there suppressed by modern societal conditioning. And thus we arrive at a problem very close to that which MVT experiences – people who will not train, and men who cannot get permission to train form their wives. It is clear to me that tactical training is an absolutely essential skill for men, but not in the view of our current society.

    So, a couple of things:

    1) I am going to start working on and penning some kind of list or document that describe my values. Donovan talks of the 4 tactical virtues of STRENGTH, COURAGE, MASTERY and HONOR. Good. But how to actually live that? I am going to make an effort to lay down the things that I consider essential virtues / skills / qualities to live by as a man. Take it or leave it – it is my list. Do what you want.

    2) It is really past time to start waking up to globalist universalist ‘Empire of Nothing’ in which we live. Sadly, that means giving up on your fairy tales of ‘Patriotism.’ Because it doesn’t exist. 1776 and all that is great history, but it does not exist. You may lash out at me for saying that, but it is what it is. We are tax serfs.

    #42346
    Profile photo of Free Chicken Dinner
    RRS
    Participant

    “Nut” I’m gonna go hide under my bed curl up and cry now.

    Do I come here to talk politics, total waste of time, I will make meta-cultural statements if they are not too extreme and be allowable on say MSNBC.

    A couple points for clarification, first is virtue signaling, white people for some reason love inane virtue signaling, but it’s a bitch activity best left to the hens.

    Second I am not anti-Christian but the only religous impulse I have ever felt in my life that could even remotely been meta-physical was Odinist, and that is that. Anyway I come from a family that was “vibrant” when white men were allowed that term. So one day as a youth they caught the wolf child (me) cleaned me up and sent me to Baptist Sunday school, I meet the male teacher, he speaks and I wonder to myself what the F is wrong with him. Men were not supposed to be like this. That was the early 70s, the rot is deep my friends. I could go on but it would just be dog piling.

    Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, Excellence

    #42349
    Profile photo of D Close
    D Close
    Moderator

    Interesting observations Max. I have enjoyed the books and the call for tribalism is resonating with me. I was especially interested in his perspective on honor. This is something that one derives from inside your tribe and requires standards and codes of some form. I think this is one reason people enjoy training at MVT.
    As an advocate for individual readiness, I believe the tribal unit holds the most value during a calamity. Too many risks with hasty friendships and alliances. There is no greater threat to a globalist elite than a strong tribal foe. Meatspace is the place to build those ties. The “Empire of Nothing” has less power there.

    The only easy day was yesterday

    #42350
    Profile photo of Dimitri Povozhaev (NE Ohio)
    ctpelok
    Participant

    TWOM has helped to solidify what I have been feeling inside of my heart, for the most of my adult life.

    For example:
    – Primarily, the four manly virtues (Strength, Courage, Mastery, Honor) are the most important aspects, which other men are looking for, when the time comes to defend the perimeter against “them”.
    – The difference between being a good man and being good at being a man.
    – Why every man needs a gang/tribe, and what makes the gang/tribe strong or weak.

    TWOM articulates the way the most men are, how the nature intended men to be, so we could survive as species first, and later evolve into what we call civilizations in the world today. This book should be a must read for every boy/grown man. The manly virtues will remain for the rest of our lives, so does the perimeter which must be protected at all costs.

    Dimitri P.

    #42351
    Profile photo of Brian from Georgia
    Brian from Georgia
    Participant

    Interesting. I’ve heard of Donovan from other websites. He makes good points on modern society and tribalism from what I’ve heard. The androphilia weirds me out, though.

    Sorry for your experience, RRS. I attend a traditional Baptist church where only men are in leadership positions. I haven’t ran across many emasculated Christians.
    Our church had a deacon that jumped into Normandy with the 101st. He was the most devout man I’ve ever known and would give you the shirt off his back. There’s a Vietnam combat vet that later, as a deputy, took a round to the back from a felon before killing him. My own Christian grandfather fought in the Ardennes. Meager though they were, they were still in the vain of Christian warriors like Lee and Stonewall Jackson. That’s not to disparage the countless God-fearing men of the church that sacrifice day in and day out for their families. I have seen courage and honor.

    Have I met weak, dishonorable people in the church? Sure, but I’ve met a whole lot more outside.

    Our society as a whole is weak and likely finished. Yet I’m still encouraged by those few in the circles I run in, both in and outside the church. I have a mentor of sorts that compares the few truly liberty minded today to Israel’s remnant that returned to build the walls after 70 years of Babylonian exile.
    It’s a good analogy. Perhaps we’re all just looking for that remnant who care enough to shed their chains and live in freedom like men.

    3-4 Aug 2013 CRCD, 2-6 Aug 2014 CRCD/Patrol, 30 Sep 2016 Run n Gun, 1-2 Oct 2016 FoF, 3-4 March 2018 DCH alumni
    Team Coyote

    #42353
    Profile photo of Brian from Georgia
    Brian from Georgia
    Participant

    Oh, here’s a good series on honor. It even mentions the horizontal and vertical concepts.

    http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/10/01/manly-honor-part-i-what-is-honor/

    3-4 Aug 2013 CRCD, 2-6 Aug 2014 CRCD/Patrol, 30 Sep 2016 Run n Gun, 1-2 Oct 2016 FoF, 3-4 March 2018 DCH alumni
    Team Coyote

    #42357
    Profile photo of JeffSags
    JeffSags
    Participant

    Very good follow up. Agree on all points!

    CRCD AUG 13, CRCD MAR 14, CP AUG 14, CR MAR 15, Shivworks ECQC, MVT RIFLEMAN, CTT AUG 16, CQBC

    #42360
    Profile photo of Free Chicken Dinner
    RRS
    Participant

    Yeah Brian its why I am not anti-Christian or an ass sucking atheist.

    I’m in the North, the rot is deep, I would say half my aqauaintences are in a save the world church and those outfits are freaking awful.

    Back to men I read a blurb and I don’t have confirmation enough to bet the house but supposedly the Marine Corps has found today’s recruits are low T manlets on entering boot camp but the rigors of boot camp boost the T off the charts (at least for modern day ‘Murka that is). And that is twinky butt Marine stuff, imagine what Paras are like :good:

    Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, Excellence

    #42361
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    I got a little past halfway through Way of Men but shelved it for more entertaining reading before bed. I get his basic argument and agree with a lot of what he says but certainly not everything. I’ll pick it back up at some point to finish but I can’t say I feel compelled to read it.

    #42364
    Profile photo of Jason Howe
    BrothersKeeper
    Participant

    I am so looking forward to fireside chats at CLC in April. Its gonna be two for one, tactical training and inspirational philosophy. Max should probably charge more for the class.

    Land Nav 06/15
    Rifle Skills/CTT/CP
    10/15
    CLC 04/17
    Alumni Live Fire 08/18

    Don’t let your past define your future.

    #42365
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    I’m not far enough into TWOM to know if I fully agree with Donnovan or not, but I already know I will also be going through the same steps of acceptance over the homo thing. I’m old fashioned enough to have a hard time putting 2 boys fucking and honor in a positive way.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #42372
    Profile photo of Roadkill
    Roadkill
    Participant

    Got to agree with Virgil. He F’s men like they are women? Didn’t know you could do that face to face.

    RS/CTT Nov 16
    HEAT1 Aug18

    #42379
    Profile photo of Thomas
    Thomas
    Participant

    I have not yet read Donovan and may not. I have to think through a couple of the things I have read in the posted topics.

    “F men like they are women….” So many males are women, this may not be beyond comprehension. Still, it is homosexual behavior. There is a lot to think about in that concept. In some ways, it is demonstrated in the prison system. Dominant males presenting themselves as alphas and controlling those who are weaker than themselves. It is primordial animal behavior. Hence, savage.

    Brian said that his church has only men in leadership roles. Not trying to start an arguement at all, but would say there are only MALES in leadership roles. The difference is important and big. Unfortunately, today to many males are not men. I am a Catholic man and see the destruction of the manly construct spreading throughout the church. There does exist a remnant, however, and it may save the church from internal destruction. Time will tell.

    I have come to realize that I detest effeminate males. They annoy me. I know some gay males who are not effeminate and who also detest effeminacy in others. It was eye opening to me to hear a fellow say that he simply hates fags and that fags are the problem in the gay community.

    Like Max, fatherhood is special to me. I waited a long time to become a father because I wanted to do it right. I am raising my son to be a man, to be a gentleman, and to think freely and not fear what others may think of him. It is liberating.

    #42380
    Profile photo of Jason Howe
    BrothersKeeper
    Participant

    Without fathers and mothers, there is no point to this whole human experiment. There are deep spiritual things at work here, but I’ll just say that the destruction of the heart and soul of men is key to destroying humanity. My father was an alpha male, a marine, a real American cowboy . . . but God bless her, married a broken, overbearing woman shaped by 60’s feminism. My mother prevented my father from mentoring me into manhood like every young boy needs and it ruined me for years and ruined my younger brother. Only at close to 49 years old am I beginning to understand things that I should have understood at 20. It sickens me sometimes. Men were not designed to be feminized, fenced in, nagged endlessly, stuck at a desk forever, robotosized, compartmentalized, marginalized . . . Men were designed to be adventurous, heroes, WARRIORS! My discovery of MVT has been a part of what I have been searching for my whole life. It may sound stupid and corny but Max is my war chief and he is teaching me things that my father should have passed down to me. Men need to become men and need to be in the company of other real men. Not all need to learn the things that are taught at MVT but we need to recapture our hearts and rekindle the flame inside of us that makes us who we were meant to be.

    Land Nav 06/15
    Rifle Skills/CTT/CP
    10/15
    CLC 04/17
    Alumni Live Fire 08/18

    Don’t let your past define your future.

    #42382
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I would not let his homosexuality prevent you fr9m reading him. He is oddly anti-gay and against effeminate men (although no idea what his boyfriend is like LOL).

    He wrotes some very good stuff, that should not be missed. However, as expressed, he is flawed in his own way. He will never be my ‘guru.’

    As i have begun to jot down what I consiser to be an MVT Honor Code, I have thought more on Donovan. I think misogyny runs deep in him. His topic is men, and he is in love with men.

    Yes, we must be free to be men. But don’t toss the baby out with the bathwater. Modern feminist women are an enemy, but not women, and not good strong women.

    I recommend to read all his books, but I cannot get completely with him. I am writing somwthing to express the code of the tactical man. It is not in itself anti-woman. Anyone with a family unit knows that rightfully it is a partnership of strengths and weakness. We can hope to find women who are unspoiled by feminism.

    #42383
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    There is no tribe without the father. Absent fathers and deviant behavior is part of the destruction of our society. I’m not sure Donovan is the best role model. I suspect that in his writings you are only confirming what you already know, but also inching closer to acceptance of deviants as normal.

    For a long time I thought all homos were by choice. I have since realized that babies are born with all sorts of abnormalities, physical and mental, and this can be one of them, but only a tiny percentage of them. Most are still by choice. Would it be acceptable if he admitted to being an adulterer? “I bang other men’s wives like whores, but let me tell you about honor.” Goats? Boys?

    There will come a time when pedophilia will be as acceptable as homosexuality. It is now being mentioned on the fringes as an identity. Once the psycho books stop calling it a mental illness, it’s over, just like the acceptance of homosexual behavior.

    I think I’ll go talk to wesmc about women’s leggings.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #42384
    Profile photo of jmj
    jmj
    Participant

    Thanks Max for the input. Donovan’s books have been nagging at me for a while. On one hand, I like what he’s saying about how we need to build up a real culture and restore manhood. But…he’s a sodomite. Tribe begins with the family, the father. Sodomites are by definition infertile, they can’t start a family and thus can’t start a tribe. It’s never been the way historically that a culture is built upon sodomitical behavior. It can’t be, it would die out in a few generations.

    I can’t square his logic with being the way he is with what he’s saying. Maybe it’s an internal struggle he’s dealing with too. It seems to me that his disorder is typically a symptom of bad father/son relationships early in life, if not outright abuse. So, that may explain a lot about him.

    His sexual prefrence is much more problematic to me than his racism. I find racism illogical (especially in it’s more common “scientific” forms), but I get it. There is a historical precedent to racist tribes all over the place. NAMBLA tribes, not so much. Something about the ending of a certain five cities on a plain comes to mind.

    So, yeah, I’m thankful that he’s started discussion on this in a lot of areas, but I don’t think he’ll ever be the final answer.

    #42387
    Profile photo of Brian from Georgia
    Brian from Georgia
    Participant

    I look forward to your honor code, Max. This is something sorely lacking.

    You should all go back and read the Art of Manliness series that I linked above. It is pure gold. It ends by stating that you need to form a platoon of men as your honor group. You have to be part of something bigger than yourself to live honorably.

    3-4 Aug 2013 CRCD, 2-6 Aug 2014 CRCD/Patrol, 30 Sep 2016 Run n Gun, 1-2 Oct 2016 FoF, 3-4 March 2018 DCH alumni
    Team Coyote

    #42388
    Profile photo of D Close
    D Close
    Moderator

    Brian,
    They are excellent. Thanks

    The only easy day was yesterday

    #42390
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Ok let’s be clear (@ VK in particular): I commented on Donovan’s homosexuality in relation to how it may have affected his perception and use for women, and thus his writing. Other than that, I do not care. It frustrates me that it is always some sort of Biblical thing that shows up here. This is not a Christian forum and there is no assumption of it.

    I do not care if he is a homo, other than an analysis of how that may impact his works and world view. There may be homosexuals on this blog. It is only relevant to me, or you you, if it is something that would preclude inclusion in your group, if you feel that a certain way, or behavior, is incompatible with it. Interesting that his Wolves Of Vinland Tribe did not reject him for it.

    I am personally repulsed by his descriptions of ‘fucking men’ but each to his own. My main concert is any flaws in his theory. You could say Milo is another one. I will say that overwhelmingly he writes good sense.

    I have not seen this racism that is referred to, not in any of the three books of the essays I have read., On the contrary. Are you simply responding with the usual modern social programming? Look to yourself, and analyze where your responses are coming from. I think it is plain that MVT is not a racist platform, and I would not associate myself with anyone who was simply a bigot. So are you talking about real racism, or racism accusations from the left due to his subject matter?

    #42391
    Profile photo of BrigandActual
    BrigandActual
    Participant

    After Max’s initial recommendation, I read through TWOM. Today I am wrapping up a cross-country drive from CA to VA, and I’ve had a lot of time to listen to podcasts, which included many with or about Donovan, and more audiobooks (particularly, ‘Left of Bang’).

    I think it is a mistake to take writings like this word for word. Rather, they should be viewed in a broader tapestry of philosophy and thought about men and masculinity. I ran into the same problem over ten years when I first read David Deida’s “Way of the Superior Man.” I haven’t read some of the other classics, like Sam Keen’s “Fire in the Belly” or Robert Bly’s “Iron John,” but I know they follow similar paths. Several female friends of mine, and even my wife, have glanced through some of my books and thought that I was part of some sort of he-man-woman-hater’s-club.

    I don’t look at any of these works as inherently anti-woman, but I understand how they can be perceived that way if taken merely at their word. But, as I discuss the philosophical issues contained, most women come around. These ideas are not inherently anti-woman, they are anti-weak men. The trouble is, we’ve let women begin defining what it means to be a man on a societal level, because they think they ought to have a say. That is a double standard that is for another day.

    My takeaways from Donovan’s work was that we should be looking at ourselves and our relationships with other men and establishing what is important to us, and how we define ourselves. Shortly after reading TWOM, I thought about my time in the military and what qualities I judged others by. I came up with a variation on Donovan’s four tactical virtues. My virtues are Strength, Initiative, Mastery, Honor, and Image.

    The last one was stood out to people I discussed this with, but it made sense after talking about it. On top of the other qualities, we ask ourselves all the time, “Can I see myself as…” or “How will look if…” It goes back to honor and loyalty.

    To sum it all up, don’t take this stuff word for word. Weave it into a broader context. Donovan’s key argument is that men should not be afraid to be men, and should be less concerned about the fearful accusations of weaker men outside of their immediate tribes. Being accused of being a racist by some asshole on the internet doesn’t matter.

    "Man is still the first weapon of war" - Field Marshal Montgomery

    Matt B - VA

    #42393
    Profile photo of Tyrell
    TyeMugz
    Participant

    I read ‘The Way of Men’ while knowing nothing of Donovan. As a disclaimer, I’m a church-going Christian. I don’t agree with homosexuality in any way, and feel like the embracing of it was the start of the official downfall of our civilization. Also, my wife convinced me that my years-long quest to find a bumper sticker that said ‘Save America: Shoot a Liberal’ was probably not the best idea, since I just got out of the military.

    That being said, I feel like we have a responsibility to seek after wisdom, or Truth. I’ve spent several years in East Asia, and learned a lot about other religions and philosophies. Through that, and other experiences, I’ve learned that you can find Truth in many places. Just because the source doesn’t follow a way of life that you think is right doesn’t mean that it is incapable of sharing Truth.

    As I read ‘The Way of Men’, I felt like there was a lot of Truth contained inside. Not everything, but I think the principles he shared are things we have definitely been lacking. Some of the things that were ‘re missing were fatherhood and husband-hood (is that a word?).

    Thanks for sharing that book Max.

    Tyrell H

    #42396
    Profile photo of Wild Bill
    wildbill
    Participant

    I have read “The Way of Men” and “Becoming a Barbarian” and find much that I like and which is missing in many “modern males”; his writings have made me reevaluate my concept of what it takes to be good at being a man.

    As to his being homosexual and squaring that with what he writes about being a man I can get past that just like I can get past our founding fathers writing about and promoting that all men should be free and that liberty was something worth dying for but at the same time owning slaves. Both are moral failings but that does not mean that you can’t learn something of great importance from what they are saying.

    And Brian that is a great link and shows the difference in what is taken as honor in different times and cultures. How we define honor will play a big part in how we see ourselves and others as “being good at being a man.”

    Western North Carolina ― LRMC-1 Sept. 2017, CQBC May 2017, DCH March 2017, RS & CTT October. 2016, CTT 1511, LN 1

    “We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.” ― Archilochos

    “I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence..." - Gandhi

    #42401
    Profile photo of Free Chicken Dinner
    RRS
    Participant

    I agree with Donovan on the difference between good men and being good and being a man.

    Going forward we need more Warfather less old pinch face scolding crone.

    Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, Excellence

    #42403
    Profile photo of Chris
    Chris
    Participant

    My two cents:
    First, I get what Max is saying about liking the books but not agreeing with the homosexual thing… If you are an adult, you should be able to look at information and discern what is worthwhile and what to discount. In the military sense you can think of it like analyzing intelligence.
    Second, my belief is every MAN should have a personal Code that he lives by. MEN used to do this. A pretty cool example can be found in the movie ‘The Shootist’ where John Wayne lays out his ‘Code’ at the start of the movie. (Watch it if you don’t remember) Your personal Code should not be long or convoluted (mine is only 6 bullet points) but should clearly state ‘who you are’. Most adult males now wonder around aimlessly because they do not know who or what they are.

    Now that I'm over 50 I realize that my People Skills are fine...it is my tolerance of Idiots that needs work.

    #42414
    Profile photo of Jake
    Weber
    Participant

    I agree with Chris here. Take the information that is useful to you and discard what is not. Donovan’s sexual orientation should have little to no impact on how you receive the message he is sending about the state of the man in our society.

    The condition of manliness in this country is broken, which he clearly points out. One reason I’ve enjoyed my time training at the VTC is because I know I get to spend some time with men doing some manly shit. As a man, I need that in my life. Doing manly shit; it’s not a specific bullet point of my personal honor code, but it is the guiding principle of the code.

    My mom said I could be anything I wanted to be when I grew up. So I chose to be a man.

    #50674
    Profile photo of Mike H
    Mike H
    Participant

    Just finished “The Way of Men”……I recommend a complete read…I also agree with much what he says. I remember earlier where the “realist/rationalist” topic was discussed thoroughly. Donovan is a realist/rationalist; he knows the game is over, he has a team assembled, he is well read and seems to be open to taking in more to increase his knowledge. No matter his faults he’s on the right side.

    “That’s all what is left?? These aren’t men, they are devils!"

    Colonel Milan 30 April 1863 aftermath of the Battle of Camaron

    CRCD March '14, CP May '15
    CTT Dec. '15, CTT(Idaho) '17

    #50680
    Profile photo of Jake
    Weber
    Participant

    Read it again. I’ve read it three times now and I always reach a new level of depth each time I read it.

    My mom said I could be anything I wanted to be when I grew up. So I chose to be a man.

    #50736
    Profile photo of Daniel
    Daniel
    Participant

    Read it again. I’ve read it three times now and I always reach a new level of depth each time I read it.

    And he does his PT!

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