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New from IWI for 2018

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  • #55256
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    It should be obvious that there is nothing wrong with the recommended AR platform, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t other options depending on needs.

    I do not own any of the Tavor family of firearms though I do have some trigger time.

    The biggest benefit I see is the SBR size package without the BATFE hassels. In fact both 5.56 Tavors are shorter than a 10″ barreled SBR AR-15, but with the benefit of a 16″ barrel.

    So they are introducing the Tavor 7 in 7.62x51mm.

    FEATURES
    Short-stroke gas piston

    Simple field stripping into only 2 parts, easy to clean and no need for special tools

    Detachablereplaceable barrel

    2 different barrel lengths to choose from –17” and 20”

    4 position gas regulator – RegularExtremeSuppressorClosed (for special operations)

    M-LOK fore end, provided MIL-STD 1913 accessory rails at the 3 and 9 o’clock positions

    Covered MIL-STD 1913 accessory rail at the 6 o’clock position

    TECHNICAL DATA
    Caliber: 7.62X51mm

    Rifling: 4 RH Grooves, 1:12″ twist

    Barrel length (mm): 432(17″)

    Total length (mm): 730

    IWI US: TAVOR TS12 Bullpup Shotgun

    It’s got some interesting features and we’ll see how it holds up to initial testing.

    Anyway options are always cool. ;-)

    #55257
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Below at 5:03 the TS12

    #55259
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    I want to see that with 3″ slugs….

    #55260
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I want to see that with 3″ slugs….

    I would like to try it with some number 4 Buck 2 3/4″ 27 pellet and the gator spreader.

    Would be a interesting Jungle CQB weapon if reliable. ;-)

    #55261
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    With an initial 6 rounds before rotating tubes, that would give pointman 162 .24-inch lead projectiles traveling at about 1,200 feet per second. In theory a pretty good initial break contact start at close range.

    Remembering the niche nature of shotguns in combat.

    Not for every situation, but effective within its limitations. :yes:

    #55262
    Profile photo of Polynikes
    Polynikes
    Participant

    I’ve ran my Tavor SAR (i.e. pre-X95) through numerous classes and thousands of rounds by now (including CTT and Patrol), in cold, heat and everything in between, and it’s been solid. While not light by any means (8ish pound range), the weight is nicely distributed in a compact package that feels very balanced and ergonomic. Of course I was not able to avoid the abuse by Max and First Sergeant, but that’s another story altogether…

    I’ve made a number of upgrades to it (including Geissele trigger pack and trigger, Midwest Industries M-LOK handguard with light mount, etc.) and I’m now configuring it for NV use as well.

    I’ll admit I’ve become an IWI fan boy so that shotgun is definitely in my future! I’ll share feedback here once I have it and tested it extensively if anyone is interested.

    George G. (the Greek) from PA

    #55263
    Profile photo of BrigandActual
    BrigandActual
    Participant

    I’ve been eyeballing the X95 (in 5.56) for a while for the exact reason listed: avoiding NFA paperwork and transportation restrictions.

    By all accounts, it would be a fine weapon so long as you put in the practice and have spare parts on hand. Not that there is a known issue, but I like to keep spares around for everything, and the X95 just isn’t as common as an AR.

    "Man is still the first weapon of war" - Field Marshal Montgomery

    Matt B - VA

    #55264
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    By all accounts, it would be a fine weapon so long as you put in the practice and have spare parts on hand.

    Here is a quote from 2015 in reply to using a Tavor (with Geissele trigger pack) with others carrying AR’s…

    I believe since they have both ammo and magazine compatibility that you wouldn’t have any real issues regardless with whom you are operating.

    I would probably pick up the “Tavor SAR Bolt Parts Kit” and keep your original trigger pack handy for a back up (not carried with you, just available).

    #55265
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Anyone going with a Tavor type should still be proficient with AR’s due to common availability

    Will be interesting to see accuracy of the Tavor 7.

    #55272
    Profile photo of A_A_Ron2guns
    A_A_Ron2guns
    Participant

    Soooooooo…… does anyone want to buy my Sig 716?!

    I’m definitely interested in that rifle. The shotgun looks like the shotgun from Quake II if anyone ever played that game! I bet it’s a freaking brick!

    You are what you do, when it counts. -The Masao

    Not the other Aaron's in this industry!

    #55273
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I’m definitely interested in that rifle.

    I am not looking for anything in 7.62×51, but if it works as advertised it would be a great choice for those needing one. I have great confidence in IWI, so I suspect it’s good to go.

    I bet it’s a freaking brick!

    I think once you got a handle on operating it it would be great. The revolving magazine tubes are a interesting idea, with practice and being able to load left and right side it seems it would be easy to keep topped off.

    Magazine fed shotguns I’ve never liked. Sure in theory it sounds great, but they are too bulky for anyone smaller than “Andre the Giant.” ;-)

    Can’t wait to get some trigger time on both, though I am more interested in the TS12 than the “7” .

    #55277
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Well. Curious.

    Lots of talk of the advantages of avoiding SBR restrictions with the Tavor. Which leads me to these thoughts:

    1) Why is a 16″ barrel so terrible on an AR?

    2) Why would a bullpup rifle, avoiding BATFE paperwork, be such an advantage given the proven ergonomic advantages and overall better system of the AR platform (even in 16″ barrel)?

    3) If you really care about SBR restrictions, but want an SBR so badly, get an ‘AR pistol’ with a brace.

    4) Why do the SAS, given the choice of a world of rifles, use the Diemaco, which is an AR (Colt Canada, so as not to have to buy from awful Yanks, Commonwealth and all that).

    :unsure:

    #55278
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Options for some Max.

    I don’t see any sudden run on Tavors as people ditch their AR’s.

    If size is a premium a Tavor maybe worth a look.

    Is it better then a AR?

    No, but it is a option for certain people/requirements?

    My one caveat: for slightly built females, I recommend a bullpup design. Something like a Tavor. With the weight to the rear, it is easier to manipulate and to bring to the shoulder and aim, reducing ‘wobble.’ If the ammo/magazines share commonality with your husband, then it’s not a problem.

    Again just a option, I have no plans to replace my AR.

    Of course the main gist of OP was the introduction of the Tavor 7 and TS12. The shotgun in no way replaces a AR and the “7” could be for the manly 7.62x51mm crowd ;-) but both need trials for verification of concept/reliability.

    Options for discussion, particularly as a gun guy in recovery. :-)

    #55280
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    So, here we go. I was going to post a comment anyway and then saw the above. It may need to be clarified for general forum members that we are not about dictating to you what you can and cannot do here at MVT (unless it is at class, where we are absolute fucking tyrants LOL!). Do what you want, obviously. However, we are about giving advice and tactical related discussion. Hence my points about the SBR qualities of the Tavor.

    GIVE IT THOUGHT.

    As to my quote about the bullpup. That was given some time ago as a result of frustrating experience with a couple who attended a number of trainings. Very frail female. My only thought was to get the weight of the weapon inboard to the shoulder. It was like watching a slow motion movie seeing the weapon come up for a ready drill, and of course he had equipped her with some heavy-assed frankengun. The typical bullshit we deal with. Even so, the Tavor is like carrying a bit of 2×6, and perhaps a better solution would have been an AR pistol (or papered SBR), given that now we are apparently given leave by our masters to shoulder a brace?

    #55281
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    Question is why would we WANT an SBR? The only advantage is the length. But why do you need a shorter length rifle? The only legit reason, IMO, is ability to store in a backpack for concealment purposes. Some may use the old but incorrect reason that it is better for CQB or vehicles. Meh.
    And invariably, any time someone wants a SBR it’s because they REALLY want a suppressor to put on it. Which makes it the same length with a 16in barrel. So 20% of time it’s for a bag gun for legit concealment purposes, but 80% of time it’s so peeps can be a silent secret ninja warrior with a suppressor. However your boat gets floated I guess.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #55282
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    For what it’s worth, I have one and tested it out in drills and such:
    -overall size is smaller, probably only coming into play in civ vehicle-centric ops or really tight CQB
    -it’s handling is great
    -piston kept things cleaner (probably doesn’t really matter)
    -I found it harder to manage recoil, by comparison, probably due to having to use an underhand support hand grip
    -THE TRIGGER SUCKS (in comparison to an AR15)- quantitatively slowed split times!
    -Mag changes can be super fast, with practice
    -Polymer mags rarely dropped free (GI mags always did)
    -Accuracy was meh for me

    For me, the tavor is a fun gun to take on an occasional range trip but can’t replace the AR15 for tactical purposes. Polynikes has run his quite hard and it seems to work for him, it’s just not for me. I wanted to love to it, but the proof wasn’t in the proverbial pudding.

    Interestingly enough, new shooters seem to gravitate towards the tavor in side-by-side familiarization fire with the ak and ar15.

    #55283
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)
    hellokitty
    Participant

    Just saw Max’s post on a female use. Had not thought of that one.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #55284
    Profile photo of JohnnyMac
    JohnnyMac
    Participant

    Just saw Max’s post on a female use. Had not thought of that one.

    Yeah, actually my petite wife likes the tavor ergos the best.

    If only I could get her to the range! Lol

    #55285
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Polynikes is Greek, what do you expect?

    Also, overall weight and 2×6 handling probably put it out for the frail female – get an AR pistol, shouldered.

    And yes, I see no need to have less than a 16″ barrel AR. Perfect compromise of muzzle velocity etc.

    #55286
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    As to my quote about the bullpup.

    Just to be clear, I understood the “slightly built females” = “Very frail female(s)” and wasn’t meant to be a throw in your face comment.

    Just pointing out; as you certainly know, there are no absolutes.

    So options are available and your example of a AR pistol (or papered SBR) is one such option.

    GIVE IT THOUGHT.

    It may need to be clarified for general forum members that we are not about dictating to you what you can and cannot do here at MVT (unless it is at class, where we are absolute fucking tyrants LOL!).

    Agree and by discussing it everyone learns why you believe certain options are superior to other options.

    This way we can avoid more Max tyrant rumors! ;-)

    #55304
    Profile photo of RobRoy
    RobRoy
    Participant

    SBR, Captain America Chris showed up with his at my class, and from what I can tell leave the SBRs to the pros such as Chris.

    If you need a SBR because you are “frail” you will certainly be shocked once it goes thunderboom replete with huge fireball, don’t even want to think what it would be like at night.

    I know there is this bit about warrior women and such, but I have come to the conclusion that some women will never ever even be close to minimally qualified to wield a gun, like my wife, them neurons ain’t wired for it. .22lr is about all she can tolerate, in my M&P AR and pistol when she can make some pew, pew and then even that is from some awkward scary positioning.

    SBRs are a plot by the BATF to have ARfcom cool boys fund the government.

    #55395
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    A suppressed shorty will blow gas out of the charging handle right in your face too.

    #55401
    Profile photo of RampantRaptor
    rampantraptor
    Participant

    A bullpup in 7.62 sounds pretty hoss but Tavors are hella expensive.

    I will admit a bit of interest in the Kel-Tec bullpup designs, the RFD looks nice and I’d be even more interested if they released the “retro” metal version they’ve shown off.

    #RaqqaSummer2017
    - - -
    Jîn, Jiyan, Azadî

    #55426
    Profile photo of Boots
    Strider
    Participant

    Max,

    As the guy that’s run the Tavor to your classes twice now (and will continue doing so far into the future) I’ve been wanting to pick your brain for a while now about why you actively dislike the Tavor. I’m gathering from your above that you don’t like its handling, and I already know of your affinity for the AR platform, but is there anything in particular that is a dealbreaker for you besides that?

    Having trained with the Tavor for a while now, I don’t think it actually handles any worse than an AR – it just handles differently. You can’t shoot it like an AR (that’s for dang sure) but if you shoot a Tavor like a Tavor it’s about as fast and smooth. My rifle cost roughly twice yours, so there’s one obvious drawback, but it has advantages that arguably balance that out.

    To put it differently, assuming someone preferred the handling of the Tavor more and the extra cost wasn’t a factor, do you have a reason why someone should still run an AR? Just curious if it’s a personal/preference thing or if I’ve missed something.

    "He is not a 'happy medium' or compromise between meekness and ferocity; he is fierce to the 'nth, and he is meek to the 'nth" ~C. S. Lewis

    #55715
    Profile photo of Dmitriy
    dg
    Participant

    My wife went through a 2-day Combat Rifle class (at MVT West) with me using an AK-47. No recoil compensator, BTW.

    If a weapon weight and/or length seems to be a problem, you can either get another rifle, or… get a Russian wife instead. ;-)

    Dmitriy G.
    CRS/NF Nov 2016; CTT/Mobility May 2017

    "We must never allow the low standards of others, nor their incessant quest for mediocrity and marginal adequacy to limit our climb toward excellence." -- Gabe Suarez

    #61291
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    My wife and I have had a very good experience with our relatively new Tavor X95 rifles in 5.56. We have each put more than 2,000 rounds through them, with zero stoppages. On paper at 300 meters with M855 PRVI and ACOG, our groups are about 6 inches. I have always favored piston-driven over gas impingement, and my buddy-team-partner for the last 30 years much prefers the ergonomics of bullpups.

    After dumping the M4/M16, now a more than 60 year old design, I am told the IDF is now issuing the semi-only Tavor, which are essentially identical to the X95 we operate.

    #61294
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Fortunately we can choose any firearm we want for any reason. Just choose wisely.

    I have no issues with the either the SAR or X95, though I have considered them, and fired both I stayed with my AR.

    …now a more than 60 year old design…

    Though not necessarily the point you were going for, yes the AR is the very refined, without defects, and combat proven. ;-)

    Replacing the AR type platform within the U.S. Armed Forces would be beyond stupid if for no other reason than cost. However besides financial, currently there is no firearm with significant improvement in performance. Until an advance in technology changes that the AR will continue to serve.

    Now again as individuals there are many reasons to justify other choices to include its just what they want.

    I still am looking forward to trying out the TAVOR TS12 Bullpup Shotgun.

    Unlike its versatility for hunting. the shotgun in combat is a niche or specialty weapon. Limited to breaching and CQB in its original sense, such as dense jungle warfare and obsolete trench warfare.

    Ammunition is heavy and bulky. Truly mastering rapid reloads takes serious practice. Finding yourself in more open terrain against a rifle equipped adversary would put you in a serious disadvantage.

    Under certain conditions; such as patrolling a dense mangrove swamp/freshwater swamp, a shotgun on point could with an experienced shotgunner added to an otherwise rifle/carbine equipped squad may be of use. Few of us have these conditions.

    So for most, the effort to master the shotgun in combat just isn’t worth the time that could be better spent on other training IMHO.

    #61335
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Fortunately we can choose any firearm we want for any reason. Just choose wisely.

    Unfortunately, in the USA, we cannot choose any firearm we want for any reason, because I would love a select fire rifle, with a 40mm underneath, and a Russian made AK. In America, however, only certain government employees and the VERY wealthy can choose these firearms. Where do you live?

    …the AR is the very refined, without defects…

    Obviously, not everyone agrees with your opinion. For starters, the AR shits where it eats, and the operator cannot run the bolt and maintain cheek weld and sights on the threat, unlike more modern firearms like the SCAR and Tavor, as well as the AK.

    So for most, the effort to master the shotgun in combat just isn’t worth the time that could be better spent on other training IMHO.

    For most of us in America, today, we are far, far, more likely to face a deadly threat in our homes, where the shotgun holds a significant advantage over the rifle and pistol, than in combat. Do you disagree? If so, then why?

    #61341
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Obviously, not everyone agrees with your opinion. For starters, the AR shits where it eats, and the operator cannot run the bolt and maintain cheek weld and sights on the threat, unlike more modern firearms like the SCAR and Tavor.

    Oh hell, someone actually said the AR ‘shits where it eats’ on the MVT forum! On the day we went open!

    Tell me why you want to run the charging handle while keeping cheek weld? I assume you have not been to class, or even watched the Max Talk on malfunction clearance? What is the common first step?

    I really can’t wait till Scott sees this. Shits where it eats! :yahoo:

    #61354
    Profile photo of Chris
    wigeon
    Participant

    I can’t either. It’s about to get real. :good: :yahoo:

    Alumni CTT/CP November 2014 - MVT RC March 2015 Rifleman.

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