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Proper target ID (identification)……fail

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  • #65819
    Profile photo of wheelseewheelsee
    Participant

    How many times have we heard the importance of proper target ID and keeping our heads out of the scopes (RDS), and maintaining situational awareness of where our battle buddies are????

    Considering the BG was using air-soft, ALL of the live rounds fired came from PD…….

    https://nypost.com/2019/02/13/how-the-tragic-friendly-fire-death-of-nypd-detective-brian-simonsen-unfolded/

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #65820
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Unfortunately the NYPD has a long history of this type of shooting, from bystanders to their fellow members.

    There are several factors that contribute to this.

    Initial training appears sufficient, however refresher training is inadequate in both quality and frequency. Remember we’re not talking just the marksmanship, but stressful problem solving whether FOF and/or simulator.

    As of Fiscal Year 2018, the NYPD’s current authorized uniformed strength is 38,422.

    The extremely large size of this LEA contributes to the problem due to budget constraints and what I believe to be a conscious decision that it’s cheaper to pay off victims of wrongful shootings than provide proper refresher training.

    Another factor is the NYPD’s requirement for a 12 pound trigger pull weight.

    Last I checked the NYPD uses SIG P226 DAO, Glock 19, and Smith & Wesson 5946 DAO.

    Lastly remember for the most part the people making these decisions are gun control socialists who would rather that the only armed people in in NYC were their protection details.

    #65823
    Profile photo of wheelseewheelsee
    Participant

    I’ve posted this before, in another thread but bears repeating….

    SWAT trained/shot monthly but the “road dogs” (yes, that’s what they were called, 1990s, LA) only shot annually, at quals, and usually used the duty ammunition given them from last qual. Even had 1 deputy whose 4046 wouldn’t fire/cycle at quals, sent to armorer who couldn’t get it to cycle, and sent to S&W – reply back was who the F had put superglue in the rails?? Turns out the deputy had been through a nasty divorce 6-8 months prior (unable to prove she did it, but STRONG suspicions)…and he had NEVER checked his firearm prior to each duty-shift……..

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #65843
    Profile photo of AbacusAbacus
    Participant

    Maybe I am quibbling about semantics, but I doubt any of the officers involved actively targeted the wrong guy. It is possible, but I doubt it. My guess is not that there was a target ID error, but rather bad geometry. This was probably a failure to account for safety angles and/or backstop. One team was probably in the other’s beaten zone. Somebody, or somebodies were where they should not have been either when the fight kicked off or they moved into a bad position as the event unfolded. You can’t always be in the best position when something like this happens, but there must be some way to mitigate this from happening again.

    All I have is sorrow for the folks involved and a slew of questions about how it came to happen.

    Do LEOs usually get into fight geometry at their academies? Does the NYPD? If they don’t, why don’t they? If they do, how often do they refresh that material? Is the NYPD going to release a detailed after action report that can be analyzed to figure out who was in the wrong place, when, and why (assuming my theory is right)?

    Further and probably more importantly, this event raises questions we should ask ourselves as a community. What can we learn as citizens from this beyond just pay attention to angles? What can law enforcement learn? Most importantly, can we/LEOs build any rules of thumb or fix/update SOPs from this event?

    Regardless, friendly fire sucks and is incredibly tragic.

    A portion of the typos in the above message might be my phone, the rest are just me.

    I have been wrong before...

    #65844
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    …I doubt any of the officers involved actively targeted the wrong guy.

    …maintaining situational awareness of where our battle buddies are????

    Bold for emphasis.

    …NYPD has a long history of this type of shooting, from bystanders to their fellow members.

    …but rather bad geometry. This was probably a failure to account for safety angles and/or backstop.

    Exactly!


    Above post shooting investigation, below a daytime picture for clarity.

    From linked article…

    Assuming Ransom’s firearm to be real and simply jammed, the trio took no chances and retreated to the street, where they took up tactical positions along with Simonsen and four other cops, according to police.

    Still holding his gun high and dry-firing it, Ransom emerged from the store to find himself in the middle of two waves of blue, with a group of cops including Gorman to his right, and Simonsen among a squad to his left, sources said.

    “He’s coming out of the store and they’re (NYPD) down the block to the right and left,” said NYPD Chief of Department Terence Monahan at a Wednesday briefing. “You’re investigating a possible crime and all of a sudden somebody’s pointing what is ­believed to be a firearm at you.”

    Seven officers opened fire, squeezing off a total of 42 rounds.

    Bold and Italics mine for emphasis.

    Ever hear of a circle firing squad?

    This was the literal example!

    You can’t always be in the best position when something like this happens, but there must be some way to mitigate this from happening again.

    Don’t shoot when innocents/friendlies are in the line of your fire.

    Does the NYPD?

    By most accounts the NYPD has one of the finest Police Academies in the world.

    If they do, how often do they refresh that material?

    …however refresher training is inadequate in both quality and frequency.

    Most importantly, can we/LEOs build any rules of thumb or fix/update SOPs from this event?

    Frequent high quality training is the answer, not just a “check in the block training!”

    Regardless, friendly fire sucks and is incredibly tragic.

    Amen.

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    #65848
    Profile photo of First SergeantFirst Sergeant
    Moderator

    It would not be the first time that officers have shot an undercover or plain clothes officer. It happens quite often.

    As was stated above, NYPD has a long history of shooting the wrong people. On the flip side, one of the last reports that I read stated that NYPD has a 17% hit rate. That means that out of every 100 rounds fired only 17 hit the intended target.

    Their Glocks also have a 12 pound trigger.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #65852
    Profile photo of AbacusAbacus
    Participant

    Perhaps an example of doing it right (or closer to right) is in order. In this video you can see a cop who is downrange of his partners duck into cover before the shooting kicks off.

    The late Weaponsman Hognose has some decent analysis about this event about halfway down the page here. I originally saw it from him.

    Looking into these types of events further, I found the following write up by LE trainer Greg Ellifritz. When Misses Hit- A Look at Real World Backstop Issues

    A portion of the typos in the above message might be my phone, the rest are just me.

    I have been wrong before...

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