March 23, 2014 at 9:17 pm #1172
Obviously in some situations an SBR has value, in confined spaces, and for concealment in an SHTF environment, along with weight savings. Suppressors have tons of advantages, especially for shooting at people at distance and concealing your position. My question: is the Feds having a perceived or real increased line of sight on you and your hardware worth it? By the time your need it will it matter? By the time you need it will you still be walking around free? Questions I have…
Attachments:You must be logged in to view attached files.March 23, 2014 at 9:18 pm #1174
And no, that isn’t my rifle and I don’t own an SBR or can.March 23, 2014 at 10:27 pm #1186
I have considered going the SBR route, still contemplating it.
In my area a SBR would work well in my opinion, dense woodlands, swamps, and the potential for some discrete urban use.
Another option would be setting one up as a pistol, yea I know it sounds useless. A padded Buffer tube can be placed into shoulder as though it were stocked or slung with an improvised cheek-weld without the hassle of BAFTE.
Remember though as long as the rule of law exists, do not gamble with the NFA.
Remember the SBR and the Sound Suppressor each require a separate $200 tax stamp.
I would also suggest at least wearing Surefire Hearing Protection which have a good compromise between protecting hearing and still having some usable hearing when conducting real operations, particularly if in an enclosed environment. You don’t know loud until you fire an SBR indoors!
No I don’t believe it increases your visibility, I would think participation in this forum will be much more high profile than getting a SBR.March 23, 2014 at 10:31 pm #1187AnonymousInactive
I’m not sure how useful a SBR really is.
We can have 14.5 inch barrel legal with flash suppresor.
Which is pretty short and handy..
How short do we really need?
And ballistic performance starts dropping waaaay off around 12 inch.
A suppressor would be cool though..March 23, 2014 at 10:51 pm #1194
I think one of the many advantages of the AR15 platform is that it would be a simple matter of having a extra Upper stored or cached to adapt to any mission should the need arise.
SBR, Carbine, or Rifle what ever you need for your mission and/or personal preference.March 23, 2014 at 11:05 pm #1196D CloseModerator
I appreciate when guys on my team are running cans. I think the answer for most of us is that there are better ways to spend money. It isn’t on my top 10 procurement items list.
The only easy day was yesterdayMarch 23, 2014 at 11:36 pm #1197
I have heard about people using solvent trap adaptors to create the ability to screw an oil filter on the muzzle of a rifle. While it can act as an effective suppressor, it is not to be used that way without first registering it with the ATF. However, you may use it to catch the cleaning solution from draining out of the guns barrel and polluting the ground. That is a legal use – as a solvent trap only. That being said, I would only buy with cash. Help keep your legal business only your business.March 23, 2014 at 11:49 pm #1199
On a serious note, If you put a suppressor on a AR15 10 inch gun, you are giving up all of that sbr maneuverability advantage and getting heaviness back – all in a package that is still loud and not subsonic. For me, I don’t want it. However, places suppressors really shine are .22s, pistols, pistol caliber carbines, and 300 blackout weapons shooting subsonic ammo.
Just my opnion.March 24, 2014 at 9:51 am #1221
I could see too on a four man team or 8 man team how having one, perhaps in the hands of the designated marksman or sharpshooter, could be useful. Say you are patrolling and you see the enemy before he sees you, at 400 yds? You have a guy with a scoped rifle and a can. A little heavier yes, but if you are going to engage a group at that distance having one can’t possibly hurt. If I bought one I would probably get a 7.62 AAC model that I could attached to a 308 or 556 rifle. The expenditure is considerable, but I question more about ATF issues.March 24, 2014 at 10:28 am #1225EricParticipant
I have a “pistol” with the Sig-Tac brace…
for those who haven’t seen the brace I am talking about:
My upper was custom built with a heavy profile, match grade, chrome lined 1:7 twist, 11.5 inch barrel. Consistent hits out to 200 yards is not an issue at all, but I have never shot it at anything further than that. That being the case, I only run an EOtech 512 on it.
I originally planned to get a tax stamp for an SBR and build one, but when this Sig thing came out, I bought it. It allows you to have what is basically an SBR, but no two hundred dollars, and no waiting six months to get it.
I love it because it is light, easy to carry, and if you disassemble the rifle, both halves fit nicely in a patrol pack.
"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"
Thomas JeffersonMarch 24, 2014 at 10:56 am #1227
On the solvent trap adapter/oil filter suppressor. One or two slow fire shots are fine, good but not great suppression, compared to actual can. Rapid fire/full auto degrade the cellulose filter material and the rifle malfunctions with fine bits of cellulose in the gastube and receiver. Basically it was everywhere, the weapon had to be completely stripped and defuzzed. This was tried on a non-sbr AR. From the sbr study mentioned previously on the forum, the degradation of the filter and subsequent malfunctions should be worse with a sbr.
There is also the issue of shooting the first round through the filter can to make the bullet exit hole in the filter can.
JoeMarch 24, 2014 at 11:57 am #1232
I have seen one of those 516s and had a chance to fondle it. I could pretty much make that work as a rifle, and can get it and have the functionality and then apply for the tax stamp and get to shoot it while you wait! With a 10.5 or 11.5 barrel plus a suppressor you are talking a similar OAL to a 16″ carbine.March 24, 2014 at 12:08 pm #1233EricParticipant
I have seen one of those 516s and had a chance to fondle it. I could pretty much make that work as a rifle, and can get it and have the functionality and then apply for the tax stamp and get to shoot it while you wait! With a 10.5 or 11.5 barrel plus a suppressor you are talking a similar OAL to a 16″ carbine.
It works well. You couldn’t use the butt end like a hard stock for knocking through something or anything like that, but it shoots and handles very well.
I have a phantom flash hider on it, but it still throws a big ass ball of flame. I am thinking of trying a “vortex” on it. I watched some vids on youtube and that thing actually works, even on a short barrel.
"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"
Thomas JeffersonMarch 24, 2014 at 12:38 pm #1236
Joe, thanks for the additional information on the solvent traps. My information has been limited thus far to friends – who also have not used them – discussing their merits. It is good to know a little more about them.March 24, 2014 at 12:46 pm #1238
The Smith Enterprise Vortex is the best flash suppressor I have ever used. They have models designed for SBR’s, give them a call/email, explain your intended use and they will tell you which model to use.
I have heard great reports on the Noveske KX3, but have no personal experience with it.
Also there is ammo that has less flash, such as Hornady TAP.
Most will not have an SBR/Pistol as their only weapon, having some appropriate ammo for mission specific use isn’t too big a leap.March 24, 2014 at 1:00 pm #1249
My main rifle is an 11.5 inch gas gun. I’m on my 3rd barrel with the rifle and it’s been a dream to shoot and go “Walkabout” with. Cans are nice for the range on a carbine, but impractical for carry through the woods. The newer Titanium cans look to be a better option and I plan to get a couple in the near future.
The best application I’ve found for a can is for night shooting. No flame, easy to keep fire direction masked in low and no light.
Adding 8″ to a 16 inch gun and you might as well be lugging a DMR or 1″ diameter bull barreled rifle around. It just isn’t practical for carbine use in a rifle caliber. SBRing your rifle helps, but once you get used to the SBR, lugging it with a can on just sucks. As far as the legalities go, You’re posting on a guerrilla training forum. Your OPSEC is already for shit.
The feds know who’s who without looking up tax forms.
Another great advantage for using a can is distance shooting with a DMR or bolt gun. It masks the direction of fire, muzzle flash, muzzle blast and if you’re any distance away, will allow you to exfil while they are tracing your direction of fire from the casualtie’s wounds (from under cover, if they’re smart).
I had a 9mm AR with a 5.5″barrel and integral can. It was all but useless as a battle rifle. I sold off the parts.March 25, 2014 at 7:51 am #1332OncelorParticipantMarch 25, 2014 at 5:39 pm #1396
Cans are nice for the range on a carbine, but impractical for carry through the woods. The newer Titanium cans look to be a better option and I plan to get a couple in the near future.
Adding 8″ to a 16 inch gun and you might as well be lugging a DMR or 1″ diameter bull barreled rifle around. It just isn’t practical for carbine use in a rifle caliber.
Can you help me understand your train of thought regarding the two statements? Are you saying they are just too long (unwieldy) and heavy? Are the titanium ones an option because their weight makes it acceptable on a carbine?March 25, 2014 at 9:09 pm #1433
Quote 1: My current stainless can gets stowed when I’m out on walkabout. The front heavy bit makes the rifle uncomfortable to carry with an additional 2 lbs hanging off the end. It’s unbalanced for carry unless you swap the position of your sling or use a 2 point to counteract the frontal weight. The Ti cans are much lighter depending on the manufacturer and seem to be a good enough weight/function trade off to enable you to carry it on an SBR or 14.5 pinned upper.
Quote 2: A heavy can attached to a 16″ carbine makes it up to 8 inches longer, for a whopping 24 inches of barrel. Dragging that long of a barrel, with a 2 pound block of steel hanging off the normally light end makes for a front heavy rifle that once again doesn’t carry well. Imagine trying to hold that barrel out for extended periods while doing sweeps or holding a position. It sucks.
I have a pencil barreled AR I use as a backup and it has a can adapter on it, and I don’t ever imagine keeping it on the carbine while carrying it. It’s a heated knee basher on the range and sucks to hump around. Did I mention “Gas in the face” on DI guns?
Hope that helps. Anything else you want to know, ask away.
Attachments:You must be logged in to view attached files.March 25, 2014 at 9:36 pm #1439
Thanks for your reply. That makes perfect sense. I currently run a 16 in carbine and have on order a AAC 762-SDN-6. It specs out at 20 oz and a tad over 6 inches long. I wasn’t really sure what to expect ergonomically until I actually ran it on my setup. At least my expectations won’t be super high now that I read your input. :D
I eventually would like be able to move it to a DMR type setup which is why I made sure to get a can that could be used for a larger caliber rifle. For the carbine, if worse comes to worse, I can always SBR one of my lowers I suppose :)March 25, 2014 at 9:50 pm #1441
SBR is the only way to fly if you want to run a can. 11.5 or longer is the best for reliability. mine was 10.5 at one time and we had to mess with it quite a bit to get it to run 100%. Your 7.62 can is slightly heavier than the 5.56. I’ve run both on my SBR and suppression is similar. Having 2-5.56 ARs and 2-7.62×51 AR’s, the canned SBR is near the same weight of the 16″ 7.62×51 AR, and about the same feel. The 7.62 canned just sucks to haul anywhere, without the can it’s almost manageable.March 26, 2014 at 9:27 am #1471
I think those AACs are not that heavy and don’t actually add 6 inches over all to the gun length, since the flash hider attachment is covered by the suppressor. My cousin in law had a SCAR 17 with one on the end and I could actually shoot it offhand. Oh his Sig 516 it was just fine. Granted, most people don’t count muzzle devices into OAL, but it is what it is. Keep in mind I am a noob at this as I don’t own one nor have I shot one. If I was to get one then I would probably build an 11.5 SBR to go with it, and would get an AAC 7.62 can so if I ever get back into 308 I can use it for that as well.March 26, 2014 at 10:33 am #1481John LangdonParticipant
I’ve got a YHM Phantom M2 .30 cal can soon to be approved. It is a tad over 20oz and just at 8.5 inches in length. I’ll run it on both my AR10 and AR15. The neat thing about the YHM cans is about 2 inches of the can sits around the barrel so it is basically like a 6″ can for both rifles. Plus I got a killer deal on it. I really like the idea of the enemy not knowing from which direction I am shooting.
Freedom has no compromise. By definition it is absolute.
October 12-13 CRCD Alumni
http://refreshingthetree.blogspot.com/March 26, 2014 at 3:26 pm #1521
I don’t want anyone to think it’s too heavy to fire offhand, it’s just a bit front heavy. I can fire my 20″ AR system in 308 offhand if I needed to, but I’m going to need a sherpa if I want to hump it any distance. As far as AOL, mine adds just under 6 inches to OAL and weighs 28oz, the 5.56 can is 19 oz and adds 5 inches to the system.March 27, 2014 at 8:30 am #1613DiznNCParticipant
I think the best practical use, for us, for a can, is for use in conjunction with NV gear, to have the ultimate flash suppressor. So combining an SBR with a can, to get overall length down would make sense, in this application.
This is one upgrade I am considering. At least some kind of light, short can for my 16″ rifle, for use with NV gear. This would give you the ultimate night fighting rig, IMHO. But as I said, I’m more concerned with eliminating muzzle flash than I am in reducing noise, although anything gained is a plus. Just that I’m not so fussy about decibels like the purists.
And sure, a 12.5″ bbl would definitely be nice to keep overall length down, but by itself, not so important, IMHO. The shorter carbine is very handy. I carried one for a few years out in the bush and loved it. But I am very happy with my 16″ mid-lengths right now.
CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, RiflemanApril 5, 2014 at 9:33 pm #2504AnonymousInactive
I recently built an A pistol w/12″ barrel and actually was at the range today sighting it in. It shoots quite well and doesn’t have noticeable muzzle flash in daylight. I also have a couple of bullpups that are about the same length. Since training with Max I realized that I need to use similar weapons under fire & movement conditions. Also it is a PISTOL, so the law views it differently than a bullpup.
There are conditions that the RFB is more suitable. Somehow .308 out of an 18″ barrel in a 26″ firearm just seems unfair! A suppressed bullpup would be a great.
Now, if I can just find a holster to open carry the AR pistol on my hip…April 5, 2014 at 9:58 pm #2507RRSParticipant
A participant at the recent class had his approved paid for sbr and it was a flame thrower with green tip and significantly louder than the other rifles in the class. He had a job where he could use its advantages but IMO for light infantry, no way. Now a can on a rifle set up like the MK-12 I believe is the juice again IMO.
Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, ExcellenceApril 9, 2014 at 3:32 pm #2801
I’ll share a couple IMHO points regarding both:
On SBR’s, I’ve played with AR based SBR’s for some time. The buffer tube sticking out the back makes them less than ideal, so even with a 10″ barrel, the gun is gangely. The usefulness of an SBR to me is first, mobility and second, concealability. The 5.56 round in a 10-11″ barrel has lost a good bit of critical velocity. Because of the low weight of the projectile, the round needs all the speed it can muster to perform. Something along the lines of a SIG 556 pistol/SBR is useful because it has the range and mobility of the AR SBR, but is concealable (the size of an MP5). something I’ve just come to knowledge of is the Serbian M92 PAPV pistol. It’s relatively easy to convert to an SBR, loses little velocity (2100fps v.s ~2350fps for the 16″ barrel AK), still has around 1300ft lbs of energy (2.5x as much as a 9mm SMG) and is the size of an MP5.
SBR’s have their place. I wouldn’t want it as my only rifle, but for urban areas, or heavily wooded areas, the full length rifle doesn’t offer much in the way of benefits.
I’ve shot with suppressors for 15+ years. A suppressed full power rifle isn’t useless. It’s suppression is for different purposes/benefits than a suppressed SMG or pistol(subsonic). The can on a rifle allows for team communication without ringing ears, masks the origin of the shot, reduces recoil and suppresses the flash better than a flash hider. It’s not going to make the rifle silent, but it can/does cut the sould of the shot enough to be worthwhile.
Just my couple cents.April 9, 2014 at 7:14 pm #2810
I think a 12.5 SBR would be great. Short enough to be handy without a can, and yet while suppressed with a 6 inch can still shorter than a full A2. My AO is urban/suburban and dense forest/marsh/swamp.
To complicate things, there is this ruling from the ATF on the brace. Change anything for anyone? BCM has short uppers in stock for cheeeep. This is like the thread that never dies!
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