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STFU: Get an AR!

Home Forums The Armory – Gear and Equipment Weapons STFU: Get an AR!

This topic contains 58 replies, has 26 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Max Velocity Max 4 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #4572
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Colt 6920

    Knuckledragger thought for the day:

    Observing training, and how people perform while doing it, I have to say that there is no justification to not have an AR-style rifle.

    Yeah, Yeah, I know. You want to bang on about putting them down at 1000 yards, turning cover into concealment, and all that. To which I say: get out and do some tactical training. Don’t just polish it and put it in the safe. Get out, down and dirty, and train to fight with your chosen rifle.

    As a tactical battle weapon, you can’t really beat the AR platform. 5.56mm ammunition is portable and effective in combat.The weapon is easy to manipulate and operate. Inter-operability, optics, spare parts are common and easily replaceable. Safety lever manipulation is easy. For example, the SAS long ago went to the M16 and now the Canadian built Diemaco.

    I just use the Colt Law Enforcement 6920. I’m a simple guy, not a gun smith. I don’t want to have to ‘build’ my rifle. I just want a weapon I can trust and that I can kill people with when it becomes unavoidable. I just buy the one that seems closest to an M4. I just throw on an optic, replace the hand-guard with a rail and some ancillary gear. Job done. Choose your specific poison.

    My one caveat: for slightly built females, I recommend a bullpup design. Something like a Tavor. With the weight to the rear, it is easier to manipulate and to bring to the shoulder and aim, reducing ‘wobble.’ If the ammo/magazines share commonality with your husband, then it’s not a problem.

    Discuss!

    Max

    #4576
    Profile photo of "Mad" Anthony Wayne
    Pericles
    Participant

    Just Do It!

    Fighting communists was a lot more fun when it was a group effort conducted overseas, and not an insurgency here at home.

    #4578
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I can’t afford an AR, and have a nice AKM I prefer, so I’ll stick with that.

    #4583
    Profile photo of DuaneH
    DuaneH
    Participant

    Agreed!

    That probably should be in your recommended equipment list:
    If this is your first time attending MVT and you don’t have a rifle, buy an AR. If you have more than one type of rifle (including an AR) bring the AR. If you have some Mini 1 Garand AK .308 Scout POS, borrow an AR. :negative:

    If you have a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, bring it! :yahoo:

    Including yourself, most other experts agree.

    Amateurs argue equipment. Experts argue tactics.
    Masters don’t argue.

    Seriously, I am surprised no one has arrived with a G 11 yet.

    Appleseed.
    NOV2008 IBC
    OCT2009 FT Stewart
    OCT2010 RBC Known Distance Rifleman
    OCT2014&2015 Long Distance Rifleman
    JUN2015 1000 Yds

    I.C.E/JAN2011 Combat Focus Shooting

    Tactical Response
    JUN2009 Fighting Pistol
    JUL2009 Fighting Rifle
    AUG2010 Immediate Action Medical
    NOV2012 Way of the Rifle

    Mountain Guerrilla/JUN2013-Irregular Warfare

    MVT
    SEP2013&2014-CRCD
    OCT2014-CP
    MAR2015-RC1=RIFLEMAN!
    AUG2015-CCC
    SEP2016-CTT
    OCT2016-FOF
    TEAM COYOTE!

    #4584
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    The problem with the AK platform as I see it is most people don’t know the best ways to run one. In addition what accessories make it run better vice just cool junk!

    A person skilled in it’s use can run it as well as the average AR user.

    However the best AK user will not be as fast as the best AR user. It’s simply ergonomics.

    There are some Russian videos that demonstrate what I feel are the best AK manipulations, if I get a chance I’ll look for them.

    The only almost necessary modification for running an AK to our safety standards (being able to manipulate safety easily during movement), the Krebs Custom Mk VI Enhanced Safety. There are other similar, but I trust Krebs products.

    This safety will allow you to manipulate safety while maintaining firing grip. Sorry lefty’s will just have to use right hand unless your thumb is long enough.

    So to sum it up, the initial savings in purchasing an AK platform could be false economy by the time you modify it and go through enough ammo training to get what is probably just adequate speed.

    I like AK’s and run one better than most, but AR is far better.

    #4589
    Profile photo of D Close
    D Close
    Moderator

    When attending CRCD, one thing stuck out during the drills regarding weapon selection. After an engagement, as your fire team does an ACE check, it kinda sucks if the rest of your team is running 5.56 and you aren’t. So SHTF, we must run what our team is running. If you are fighting as a G, the enemy will most likely have an AR platform. You will use his stores to supply your resistance. It is accurate and it is deadly for at least 400m, YMMV, right out of the box. It can be easily adapted for NOD use due to its easy P-rail add ons.

    The only easy day was yesterday

    #4591
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    20 years ago we had, and took, the opportunity to shoot all sorts of tactical rifles. My favorites at the time were the M14 and the HK91. After the experience, I swore I would never own an AR15 weapon because it was like a “toy” gun – just not enough umph.

    That was a mistake and I have repented. The M14/HK91 and likes are some of my favorite weapons to shoot, are muy macho, but the weapon of choice for me in ANY type of an emergency situation is the AR15. It is fast, light, and simple. I can carry so much more ammo and in fewer mags than the 7.62 weapons, plus the larger caliber (including my AR10) weighs so much more then the AR15.
    With the AR15, it is so much easier to get the second, third and fourth rounds down range on target quickly. Sure some will say, “with the AR15 you need those extra rounds to put the target down”. Well maybe, bullets can be mysterious (I once shot an animal through the center of the lungs with a .458 Win Mag and it ran several miles and then was eating when I caught up and finished him off).

    My 2 cents.

    #4604
    Profile photo of JohnyMac
    JohnyMac
    Member

    The AR is a great platform for both men and women!

    MrsMac loves her Colt and now wants one of those “red sight thing-ies” too. She field strips and cleans her own weapon without any issues.

    The only issue she has is putting more than 18 or so rounds in a 30 round mag. Her fingers just don’t have the strength needed to load a full mag.

    Freedom Through Self-Reliance
    www.Unchainedpreppers.com/forum

    #4605
    Profile photo of DuaneH
    DuaneH
    Participant

    Mission drives equipment.

    As has been mentioned: The one thing you need to do to an AK is get an improved safety so you can finger sweep it down. If you are going to convert a bunch and know how to rivet metal with a ball peen hammer, then Solartactical.com has the tabs for 15$ a piece plus shipping. Otherwise a 50 dollar Krebs.

    When comparing an AK to an AR, you need to compare apples to apples. While ten years ago it was possible to get 400$ AKs that were pretty good, now entry level is around 700$. At entry level, you may be getting an AK that was built in the USA or one without a chrome lined barrel. AKs made in small shops in the USA tend to not be as good as AKs made in Europe or Russia.

    Quality ARs are around 800-1000. Quality AKs are 900-1200 dollars plus mags that are more expensive.

    Another BIG issue with AKs, even beyond the shitty ergonomics is that their is very limited native manufacturing capability for ammo. That means if the BATF-E bans importation of WOlf et al, then the price of ammo will increase.

    Appleseed.
    NOV2008 IBC
    OCT2009 FT Stewart
    OCT2010 RBC Known Distance Rifleman
    OCT2014&2015 Long Distance Rifleman
    JUN2015 1000 Yds

    I.C.E/JAN2011 Combat Focus Shooting

    Tactical Response
    JUN2009 Fighting Pistol
    JUL2009 Fighting Rifle
    AUG2010 Immediate Action Medical
    NOV2012 Way of the Rifle

    Mountain Guerrilla/JUN2013-Irregular Warfare

    MVT
    SEP2013&2014-CRCD
    OCT2014-CP
    MAR2015-RC1=RIFLEMAN!
    AUG2015-CCC
    SEP2016-CTT
    OCT2016-FOF
    TEAM COYOTE!

    #4608
    Profile photo of JohnyMac
    JohnyMac
    Member

    To add to your comments DuaneH, you can very easily build a AR for under $500-.

    80% lower + OEM upper complete + trigger assembly + assorted little parts = Your very own rifle for under $500- and no NICs check, no records at your local mom & pop AKA form 4473. APEX is a good place to start.

    Freedom Through Self-Reliance
    www.Unchainedpreppers.com/forum

    #4609
    Profile photo of "Mad" Anthony Wayne
    Pericles
    Participant

    Any further questions?

    The AR is a great platform for both men and women!

    MrsMac loves her Colt and now wants one of those “red sight thing-ies” too. She field strips and cleans her own weapon without any issues.

    The only issue she has is putting more than 18 or so rounds in a 30 round mag. Her fingers just don’t have the strength needed to load a full mag.

    Might try clips and guides – can use the force from the entire hind to load the magazine

    Fighting communists was a lot more fun when it was a group effort conducted overseas, and not an insurgency here at home.

    #4610
    Profile photo of Free Chicken Dinner
    RRS
    Participant

    I have a buddy who if it accepts a magazine he owns it and he never grouses about shooting an AR. The others are curiosities that fill the niches of nit pickers. The AR platform has the ergos advantage, the rest are afterthoughts inflicted upon the other guys because their governments were bought off by the native manufacturers or captive markets because of the Cold War.

    Bigoted rant off

    Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, Excellence

    #4614
    Profile photo of JustARandomGuy
    JustARandomGuy
    Participant

    ….I just use the Colt Law Enforcement 6920.

    The 6920 is a great rifle, and can occasionally be found for really good prices (WAS $999 or better pre ban scare).
    Anyone looking to get into a basic AR should look straightaway for one of these. As far as other basic reasonably budgeted ARs, a S&W MP-15 or Spikes M4-LE[?] should also be on the short list- pre ban scare the Spikes was running $800 flat…

    …My one caveat: for slightly built females, I recommend a bullpup design. Something like a Tavor. With the weight to the rear, it is easier to manipulate and to bring to the shoulder and aim, reducing ‘wobble.’ If the ammo/magazines share commonality with your husband, then it’s not a problem…

    As a caveat to the caveat, you (generalization) can get an AR to work similarly in one of two ways- one is a straight up lightweight build- lightweight barrel, USGI-style M4 or MOE basic stock, MOE or lightweight/lowprofile handguard like one from Troy (or one of the new KMR/Keymod, whatever the rage is right now). There’s almost no weight to a rifle like that. You can further save weight with an optic like an T-1/H-1 Aimpoint.
    The other option, is to further counterbalance the front end by simply adding a heavier stock- so a lightweight barrel + low-pro rail/handguard upper mounted on a lower with say, an ACS/STR/UBR/etc. stock will add the weight and balance back to the rear quite nicely (especially if you load the battery tubes on the ACS/STR)- a well balanced gun can sometimes work just as good as a super light one.
    Of course, you will add a little extra LOP with these sort of stocks versus the ultra-short USGI M4 style, or even a basic MOE.
    But I’ve seen guys build rifles in the above ways for wives/GF/kids and it seems to work out- personnel dependent.

    …Quality ARs are around 800-1000…

    This.
    In the rush to go out and get any AR, please just don’t get the first cheapest rifle you can lay your hands on.
    Be prepared to make a significant initial investment.
    As DH mentioned, in the $8-900 range, you’re looking at a good basic rifle (see my previous above) with NO extras.
    If you want a rail system, freefloat or otherwise, or aftermarket stocks/ accessories/etc.you will need to raise the budget to around $1000-1400
    Checking forums, local shops/ads/etc. may enable you to do better if you can live with a lightly used, but better rifle.
    I’m sure everyone already knows all that… :wacko:

    J-Mac- your issue with the lady only getting 18 in the mag- have you tried one of those maglula[?] loaders? Clips to the top of the mag and uses a lever for easier insertion of ammo.

    "Time come Kimosabe, when good men must wear masks."
    ~Tanto

    #4615
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    The only issue she has is putting more than 18 or so rounds in a 30 round mag. Her fingers just don’t have the strength needed to load a full mag.

    Might try clips and guides – can use the force from the entire hind to load the magazine

    Also look at Lula Loaders. http://www.amazon.com/Butler-Creek-Magazine-Unloader-Remington/dp/B001HBHNHY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1399356403&sr=8-2&keywords=lula+speed+loader
    Great for loading lots of mags, or unloading them in a hurry, without shooting them.

    #4616
    Profile photo of DuaneH
    DuaneH
    Participant

    If you look at the history of what caused the original M 16 to be failure in Vietnam (thus necessitating the intro of the M16A1) we can learn what not to do in current ARs.

    The USG deviated from Stoner and did not put a chrome lined barrel on the rifle, used dirty powder and reused disposable mags. These all contributed to the failings. (google it if you are interested)

    The modern AR is extremely reliable is made from quality parts and is properly maintained.

    What we can take away from this is at a minimum and AR should have a chrome lined barrel and bolt carrier. I would also add that your bolt should be HP/MPI to insure QA as this item gets the most abuse and you should always have a spare with you.

    As the rifle gets thousands of rounds through it, you need to have your rifle on a maintenance schedule to replace gas rings, firing pins, extrractors and even the recoil spring. Failure to do so may result in an unreliable rifle.

    In a fighting rifle, always use quality internal parts. I have seen hammers break and pins shear off with cheaper stuff. At a minimum, it should be mil spec internals. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what is and is not mil spec but buy from the big manufacturers and you should be good.

    To quote a well known trainer: Nothing match should be in a fighting rifle. Match typically means tight and tight means less reliable. Your mileage may vary, but even at Appleseeds I have seen “match” triggers malf.

    As a long time builder of ARs, I would not recommend building your first AR.

    It is a great way to save money. If I get the parts on sale at PSA, I can build one for around 600. Keeping in mind that all my rifles have CHF barrels.

    Appleseed.
    NOV2008 IBC
    OCT2009 FT Stewart
    OCT2010 RBC Known Distance Rifleman
    OCT2014&2015 Long Distance Rifleman
    JUN2015 1000 Yds

    I.C.E/JAN2011 Combat Focus Shooting

    Tactical Response
    JUN2009 Fighting Pistol
    JUL2009 Fighting Rifle
    AUG2010 Immediate Action Medical
    NOV2012 Way of the Rifle

    Mountain Guerrilla/JUN2013-Irregular Warfare

    MVT
    SEP2013&2014-CRCD
    OCT2014-CP
    MAR2015-RC1=RIFLEMAN!
    AUG2015-CCC
    SEP2016-CTT
    OCT2016-FOF
    TEAM COYOTE!

    #4619
    Profile photo of JohnyMac
    JohnyMac
    Member

    Thanks for the reloading mag suggestions gents! :good:

    Freedom Through Self-Reliance
    www.Unchainedpreppers.com/forum

    #4624
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I’ll be getting the Krebs safety lever for sure. The safety is the only thing about the AK platform I don’t like.

    #4630
    Profile photo of Gamma Rat
    Gamma Rat
    Participant

    Since I used M16A1’s in the military, I swore an oath to GOD, that I would never own a Stoner rifle.

    So, I own 3 AKs chambered in .223, and .308.

    Yeah, they’re less accurate than a AR, but they were never intended to be used at over 300 yards. Use the right tool for the job. Those longer distances are covered by my sniper rifle.

    Gammas stand apart, staking out and defending their space, finding their own mate, showing no interest in dominating the Betas. Essentially, they avoid all but necessary, cautious interaction with Alphas and Betas.

    #4651
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I agree with Max’s suggestions 100%. I am not going to say that there are no other suitable alternatives or that you cannot make something else work. I am a believer that there are a variety of things you can make suit your purpose – software being more important than hardware.

    However, the suggestions that Max provides are the easiest, most hassle-free way to have the gold standard in reliable small arms performance – a truth that will become increasingly more apparent to you in proportion to your time in the field. Sometimes it is simpler to have a weapon platform you can focus on working with instead of a platform you have to work around.

    #4659
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Fantastic Deals on AR’s abound right now…
    Any one of these is worth their money:

    1) A 4150 barrel, Piston with selectable gas settings so its shoots soft ammo w/o short cycling and hot ammo w/o overgassing.
    Blem rifle but only 600 bucks w/ Buds membership (unbelievable!!!)
    http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411554498/Adams+Arms+Base+Piston+Mid+Length+556NATO+16%22+BLK+6-POS+30RD+Blem

    2)Colt 6721 for $900 !!!!!!:http://www.cdnnsports.com/just-in/colt-6721-223-16-tactical-carbine-flat-top-1-30rd.html#.U2l0UPldWSo

    3) Colt 6920 for $1120 after mail in rebate
    https://www.ironsightsfirearms.com/colt-le6920socom-carbine-col-556-carb-161-matte-30-p-178874.html?zenid=c342ad0c81565871abab2b5527b466ec

    4) AAaaand a SIG 516 for $1288 shipped (w/ secret discount code) :yahoo: Cold hammer forged Barrel, of 41(V)45 machine gunsteel barrel Piston gas, w/ adjustable gas settings, advanced lower, a real blue blood !
    http://www.firearmsforsale.com/sig-sauer-inc/firearms/rifles/sig516-patrol-ar-15-sa-223-5.56-16in-30plus1-magpul-moe-stk-black/

    5) Daniel Defense DDM4V7 .. $1340 another blue blood with CHF barrel of machine gun steel, midlenght gas with CERAKOTE and advanced rail and high traction buttstock:
    http://grabagun.com/catalog/product/view/id/172178

    6) S&W MP15, MOE furniture w/ 1 in 8 rifling and melonited barrel.
    $949
    http://www.vizardsgunsandammo.com/product-p/2-sw811054.htm

    Need I go on? ;-)

    #4660
    Profile photo of Greg Owens
    Greg Owens
    Participant

    Agree with Max on betting your life on top of the line factory build
    carbine. Many second tier guns have poor quality trigger assemblies.
    I would pass on the 6920 because the non-folding front sight inter-
    frees with my vision with an ACOG and especially a red dot. Daniel
    Defense or BCM won’t disappoint.

    #4666
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    New guy here. :bye: Love the information and perspective here.

    The AR platform even to new shooters is naturally intuitive. Add the soft recoil of the 5.56mm cartridge and Good fundamentals at no question why the ar is so practical.

    #4667
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Welcome to our little corner of the internet Able! :bye:

    #4668
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I would pass on the 6920 because the non-folding front sight inter-
    frees with my vision with an ACOG and especially a red dot.

    I’m like that too.
    Some guys aren’t bothered by it but for me the clutter in my sight picture from a fixed FSP is something I dont want.

    Selling my last rifle like that tomorrow.
    Some people don’t mind though and more power to them :)

    #4672
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I have an AR. We all should. I think that’s what Max is getting at. He’s not saying that it’s your only gun, but needs to be a gun you have. Are you doing base defense at your home/retreat/bunker? Fine, use a bigger, heavier gun. Are you running an operation with a team of like-minded folks from around your locale? Probably good to have some similar, interchangeable pieces. Are you holding watch duty from a hide? Have whatever you want. I’d given my AR to a buddy while I carried my FNAR 20″ Heavy barrel on a trip. A couple of miles chasing coyotes and my arms were screaming while that AR felt light as a feather.

    And besides, do any of us really NOT want to buy another rifle?

    #4674
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Just an observation this past weekend.

    I was in the CRCD class and the RMP class. I am a gunsmith and I like to observe and see what works and what does not work. Here is what I observed.

    There was quite a selection of rifles, of course mostly AR platform. Generally speaking it was the stock appearing AR firing factory ammo that had the least amount of troubles. I ran a run of the mill DPMS AR in 5.56, Aimpoint Patrol model sight using PMC 55gr .223 factory ammo. My mags were mostly stock Colt 30 round magazines. I will say I did clean and oil my rifle every evening. I had no weapon problems at all. At least from a training standpoint there is nothing more frustrating than a poor running weapon.

    There are many points to argue for and against this platform or that platform but nothing beats a rifle that works all the time. Many of the forum members have other rifles that work great for them and I love to see that. I am just making an observation that simple can sometimes be more valuable than better (as in maybe your platform is truly better but harder for the average guy to keep running or manipulate).

    Second observation, if you reload you had better be good at it and have your act together. Nothing ruins your day like 1000 poorly reloaded cartridges, HA HA! Not saying you can’t get a bad factory cartridge here and there but I believe your success rate will be much better with factory ammo.

    If you are a seasoned firearms person and you have your shit together you are in the minority and I applaud you for that. The “average” Patriot, as far as I can tell, may have considerably less firearms knowledge.

    I am in the firearms trade and talk with customers every day. Many can regurgitate back to you information they have read on line or in magazines but when questioned in depth many times you find out they have no true understanding of what they are talking about, just stuff they can memorize.

    Again not science just pure observational information.

    #4810
    Profile photo of Ralph Kramden
    HiDesertRat
    Participant

    to MVFmoderator, that gas piston, adams arms ar15 from budsgunshop.com is gone now, however i noticed they have a windham weapons ar15 (direct gas impingement system ie original configuration) carbon fiber receiver m4 model for $607, plus free shipping. Windham owners originally created bushmaster, then sold the company. they make a quality product, reviews are exemplary. thought i would pass it on.

    #5037
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Once you’ve bought your AR come to a CRM class and I’ll make you a gunfighter.

    #5078
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Get an AR? Only one? I call BS…you should have at least two.

    #5128
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Received one of the Bud’s Guns Adams Armory M-4 blems yesterday. It is laughable to worry about the blems – little swirls in the finish that will not even be noticeable after the first time you train with the weapon and scratch/rub it up. The handguard is a bit cheap looking, but seems to be serviceable. However, the Barbie Doll of weapons renders this easy to swap out for better ones, so no major issue.

    $617 for a piston gun seems pretty good – will put some rounds through it this weekend and report back.

    USMA84DAB

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