Small Unit Tactics contact patriot-dawn Patriot Rising

Submachine Guns and Pistol Caliber Carbines: What role; if any, do they play?

Home Forums The Armory – Gear and Equipment Weapons Submachine Guns and Pistol Caliber Carbines: What role; if any, do they play?

This topic contains 26 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Socks Socks 8 months, 4 weeks ago.

Viewing 27 posts - 1 through 27 (of 27 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #5414
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Before anyone gets riled up, I am not suggesting that anyone trade in their rifles!

    However there are plenty of these in circulation and I have some thoughts, but would be interested in other opinions.

    One of my favorite first generation submachine guns, it’s a boat anchor compared to today’s SMG’s. It’s one of the most accurate and controllable SMG’s ever.



    The KP/-31 was the accuracy standard to which other sub-machine guns of the time were compared. Above are two targets shot during official Army weapon acceptance tests from 100 meters’ distance. Left target: 15 rounds of semi-auto shots from bench rest. Right target: 50 rounds of full auto shots as a single long burst from bench rest. Photograph from original illustration in the KP/-31 manual “SUOMI-KONEPISTOOLI” by OY TIKKAKOSKI AB (1942).


    Drawing of “Sunina-Suomi” SS-II Silenced Barrel Unit. Special variations of SUOMI KP/-31 are still topical items.

    Here’s a Beretta CX4

    Suppressed CX4

    #5418
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Note: This is not Max’s response/content. Just a glitch from the transition to subscription.

    I have a Sub2000, so I’m not exactly unbiased, but I believe there is a limited role for these things. They are relatively quiet compared to actual pistols and very quiet compared to intermediate caliber rifles, carbines, and especially SBRs. With a suppressor, it’s pretty clear that they could be very useful for the sort of thing a direct action underground unit might do. They tend to be compact and (to a degree) concealable, plenty accurate at close range and many of them use the same magazines as the more popular 9mm and .40 handguns. A PCC or SMG firing 9mm FMJ should be able to penetrate most soft body armor.

    #5421
    Profile photo of Easy
    Eric
    Participant

    They are fun!

    I have shot a full auto thompson, and original Schmeizer (sp?), and I got to shoot a full auto MP5 several years ago. They were all a blast, but the tommy and the schmeizer are both pretty heavy.

    I would think that the pistol caliber carbines or SMG’s would be extremely useful and probably superior in close quarters where there is threat of collateral loss of life. In fact, didn’t the SAS make the MP5 famous when they rescued hostages from some group in one of their embassies or something?

    "I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"

    Thomas Jefferson

    #5422
    Profile photo of CW
    CW
    Participant

    That was Prince’s Gate, I believe, Eric. IIRC, there’s a fairly detailed analysis of the op on wikipedi, if you’re interested.

    #5432
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    As modern SBRs proliferate the role for SMGs is lessened.

    Let’s keep in mind that SMG’s evolved in WW1 (and had their heyday in WW2) as a weapon that is controllable in full auto but can still be readily carried by one man wiht the same ease as a rifle.

    Recall the large size of WW1 (and nearly all WW2) Ammo which made that impossible w/ all but pistol ammo.
    But now that raison d’etre no longer holds due to SBR’s.

    So the SMG role is consequently greatly diminished and not used anymore as primary infantry weapon .

    it is better than a pistol? waaay better.. is it as useful as a SBR? IMHO No.

    #5434
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    So the SMG role is consequently greatly diminished and not used anymore as primary infantry weapon .

    Completely true for a Nations Armed Forces!

    However as a insurgent group things are not so clear:

    1. They are already here in plentiful amounts and variations.
    2. Pistol caliber makes them easier to control in full auto.
    3. They are easier to suppress particularly with improvised equipment.

    It would seem a shame for a perfectly fine weapon to just sit there because it is “Old School!”

    Give me Billions to equip “Today’s Modern Militia” and I might pass on the old workhorse SMG/PCC, on a shoestring budget well they can work pretty well.

    (all NFA rules apply)

    #5454
    Profile photo of JustARandomGuy
    JustARandomGuy
    Participant

    Completely true for a Nations Armed Forces!

    However as a insurgent group things are not so clear:

    1. They are already here in plentiful amounts and variations.<br>
    2. Pistol caliber makes them easier to control in full auto.<br>
    3. They are easier to suppress particularly with improvised equipment.

    It would seem a shame for a perfectly fine weapon to just sit there because it is “Old School!”

    Give me Billions to equip “Today’s Modern Militia” and I might pass on the old workhorse SMG/PCC, on a shoestring budget well they can work pretty well.

    (all NFA rules apply)

    At the least it could be used to get a better weapon.
    Better than a single-shot Liberator…

    My *thing* with them is the whole NFA thing. Not interested if it doesn’t make multiple bangs in a row and has a huge 16″ barrel. Folks touting them as a “budget” option for a full rifle in “carbine” mode- Nah. Just get the rifle while they can be got. No point in carrying a fullsize package using a round that won’t perform worth the extra size/weight, imho.

    However, having had the opportunity to shoot a few non-neutered versions (MP5, Tommy, P90- the MP5 was the best by far), if I could have them in a normal configuration it would make a great useful addition for a small, light, easily hidden, short handy weapon with lots of close range firepower.
    Of course again, one has to question the overall utility given the proliferation of body armor these days.

    "Time come Kimosabe, when good men must wear masks."
    ~Tanto

    #5461
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    At the least it could be used to get a better weapon.
    Better than a single-shot Liberator…

    They are quite a bit better than a Liberator! :yes:

    My *thing* with them is the whole NFA thing. Not interested if it doesn’t make multiple bangs in a row and has a huge 16″ barrel.

    Someone more legal savvy than me will have to confirm, but I heard a rumor that if the SHTF and you are actively battling Tyrannical Federal Agents and Military, that in this hypothetical scenario NFA may not be a concern.

    Of course other than the inconvenience it’s not that hard or difficult to get legal NFA weapons right now.

    Of course my original main point!

    there are plenty of these in circulation

    #5468
    Profile photo of Seth
    Seth
    Participant

    I think they are ok. The only role I can think of is the anti-sentry role. Instead of sending me in with a pistol, send me in with a MP5-SD. If shit gets hinky I am at least semi-well armed with three or four mags. My personal choice is the aforementioned MP5-SD, or an MP7. I’m not interested in anything else, really. If I couldn’t get my hands on those I most likely wouldn’t be able to get anything else. A suppressed AR is my next choice.

    I have high-functioning awesometism.

    #5475
    Profile photo of Baldrick
    Baldrick
    Participant

    I think the concept has evolved into PDWs today. That is a whole different discussion.

    a PCC is useful, but we have to look at pros/cons which some others have alluded to. The whole point of an SMG (note, not a PCC, an SMG) originally was to be shorter, lighter weight, and most importantly have a giggle switch. The advantage over the rifles of the day (8mm Mauser, 30-06, 303 Brit etc) was in maneuverability and rate of fire. For trenches, paratrooper ops, clearing fortifications and assaulting without question a Sten or Thompson was preferable to a bolt gun. Pros of rate of fire and weight and maneuverability, the cons of range and accuracy at distances were minimized in the style of fighting they were used for.

    A PCC that has to have a 16 inch barrel and not have a giggle switch has none of the advantages over an AR-15 that a Sten had over a Lee-Enfield. They are the same size, pretty much the same weight, and have pretty much the same rate of fire. Even ammo is similar weight. Our NFA laws essentially neuter the concept for most people. Now if all bets were off and the NFA was repealed tomorrow, that is a whole different story, because a UMP-45 has significant advantages over a 16 inch AR-15 in certain situations IF and only if it has a giggle switch and short barrel.

    As I said early I think our time has its own version in PDWs. the P90/Five-seveN concept, the MP7, and the new micro ARs/SCARs/Tavors/insert-modern-cool-modular-assault-rifle-family-here-so-no-one-gets-offended are the natural evolution of it. So if I could roll with a full auto SBR P90 tomorrow I might have to do that. But I can’t… :unsure:

    Maybe it’s a good thing too…can you guys imagine how eternally screwed up the ammo market would be for the next 5 years if full auto became legal tomorrow? Would make Newtown look like a walk in the park…and 22LR would get added to the extinct North American species list. :wacko:

    #5484
    Profile photo of eric
    eric
    Participant

    I think a suppressed sbr ppc has a purpose for sentry work and taking out collaborators of the regime at there residents.
    And in a uprising situation with 9mm ar and mag block you are two pins from having the real deal.
    Or a homemade lightning link.

    #8573
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Note: This is not Max’s response/content. Just a glitch from the transition to subscription.

    One thing I’m surprised no one has mentioned yet is that you can use a “pistol” with an SB-15 or SB-47 brace.

    #8588
    Profile photo of RampantRaptor
    rampantraptor
    Participant

    By and large I don’t see any real advantage of a PCC or SMG (at least semi-auto civvie models) over rifle-caliber carbines, outside of size considerations. The best I could think of is perhaps as a cheap means to arm someone with some type of mid-range semi-auto rifle, $200 and another person on the team can at least have a Hi-Point to hold them off until they can get a proper rifle. In full SHTF if there are too many people and not enough ARs a cheap PCC could help those on guard duty hold the fort down while the ones going outside the grid use the bigger guns. Maybe a PCC could work as a backup gun for anybody who gets in on the action late and under-equipped, or if there’s a surplus of pistol ammo and rifle ammo is in low supply.

    Regarding full-auto, outside of a legit full-auto weapon there are the slide-fire stocks. Not that I would advocate anyone putting together an illegal configuration outside of a complete collapse of law and order, but a SBR with a slide fire is effectively an SMG.

    #RaqqaSummer2017
    - - -
    Jîn, Jiyan, Azadî

    #8598
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I think most; even though I attempted to avoid it, have gotten sidetracked on the rifle vs SMG/PCC subject.

    Things forgotten or overlooked:

    Not everyone will show up; whatever SHTF scenario floats your boat, with proper equipment and training. In fact with the shear number of new combat vets it might be easier to find those with some training, but lacking equipment.

    In a insurgent scenario a compact low profile easily suppressed SMG/PCC maybe preferred for some operations.

    Finally there are many of these out in circulation.

    The most common legal NFA fullauto weapon in my circle of influence is the SMG, many suppressed, you may have different ones.

    SMG’s tend to be the most reasonable entry level fullauto NFA item available.

    While I certainly understand wanting to avoid NFA BAFTE paperwork and inspections, however if the only reason is trying to stay off a list, your too late!

    #8609
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Part of the problem is logistics. With the price of 9mm (which is really hard to find in bulk right now) at about .25 cents a round, it hardly makes sense to go with a weaker caliber. 5.56 is quite controllable, even by someone of smaller stature.

    #8613
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Part of the problem is logistics.

    Much like the availability of real NFA Legal SMG’s this is more a problem for those of you starting late in the preparations movement.

    To fully understand this (those too young to remember), for many of us the price difference between semiauto and fullauto was measured in the price of the Tax Stamp and some paperwork.

    There are many with sufficient stocks of various pistol ammo purchased before price increase (decades before) that will be good to go for a very long time.

    …it hardly makes sense to go with a weaker caliber.

    Again my point was never about choosing a SMG/PCC over a rifle, but how to effectively use what is readily available.

    This fixation with having to choose one over the other is why I had given up on this thread back in May! :yes:

    #8763
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Note: This is not Max’s response/content. Just a glitch from the transition to subscription.

    I have a Kriss Vector and SL8 which is a variant of the HK G36. The only advantage a SMG has is recoil control, beyond that I think it’s pretty pointless with SBRs that are out now.

    As far as I know, the SAS never trained with their MP5s using full auto, they developed the “double tap” because the 9mm does not really have huge stopping power but the accuracy and ability to re-acquire target of the MP5 is what made the double tap effective.

    I think the SBRs will make SMGs irrelevant. However, in hostage situations maybe a 9mm is still useful because you don’t want bullets penetration through dry wall and hitting other team mates in other rooms. A 5.56 will go through several drywall etc. Not good for multiple entry strategies.

    So, maybe SMGS still have it’s place but i think it’s not too useful for SHTF situations. The only time i would use a SMG is for very close contact (50meters) or less.

    One of my strategies is to have a bolt action rifle and a SMG with a lot of magazines. The intention is to have a short compact “rifle-esque” secondary that is light and effective up to 75m. This is meant to be a break contact firearm designed for dense vegetation and uneven ground, i.e the mountains. You transition from one position to another, you want mobility and maneuverability but you don’t sacrifice firepower.

    The bolt action rifle is your primary but when you transistion from position to position you are very vulnerable and a SMG can be useful there. Beyond that, I don’t see any use in a SMG.

    Your environment will dictate what tool you use. For mountain regions, a 308 just doesn’t cut it anymore, atleast not in my AO. A 338 LM gives you more flexibility and greater range, penetration etc. But you are STILL very vulnerable when you move positions, bunker down at night etc.

    so you need a secondary. SMG suites that role.

    Manifold

    #8883
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Note: This is not Max’s response/content. Just a glitch from the transition to subscription.

    I just joined the forum, but I couldn’t resist this topic.

    I think an SMG is quite viable on today’s battlefield, if we’re talking all-out war. Most Cold War designs are stupid simple. Easy to make, easy to use, and easy to clean. My personal favorite is the Uzi, with its tame cycling rate of 600 rpm. They offer a lot of firepower in a compact, concealable package. Frederick Forsyth could have outfitted his mercenary team with anything in “The Dogs of War,” but he chose the MP-40 because it fit the mission profile: a swift, brutal attack against a lightly-defended enemy base.

    There are a lot of knowledgable people in the industry who can modify a MAC-10 any way you want it. Folding/solid stock. High or low rate of fire. Picatinny rail. Heck, I’ve heard of some guns that have been modified to accept Glock 18 magazines (a good alternative to surplus stuff).

    If I need a gun and you give me one that works, I’ll be satisfied. If you can make good shot placement, then any gun will do the job. I’m wasn’t born when the 1986 machine gun ban went into effect, so I’m late to the game by default. Right now, spending $8,000 on a gun is out of the question. I can make the money I have go a lot farther by investing in other things.

    But GWNS, don’t tease me. If you’re going to “outfit” anyone with these puppies, I want some of that action!

    #9132
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Note: This is not Max’s response/content. Just a glitch from the transition to subscription.

    I will take an AR pistol with an 11″ barrel in 5.56 or 7.62×39 over a subgun any day. If I wanted to be quiet, a 7″ AR in 9mm shooting 147gr subsonic would be a hard hitter at 50 meters, and not wake up the countryside while shooting with a can. It would keep your ears from bleeding if you are shooting inside a building.
    My PDW is an AR with an 11.5″ barrel chambered in 7.62×39. It runs 100% with the 7 mag I own, and is very effective out to 150 meters.

    #57969
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Before anyone gets riled up, I am not suggesting that anyone trade in their rifles!

    I started this Thread back in 2014 to address uses for pistol caliber carbines and submachine guns.

    Some of the reasons is the sheer number of these firearms in circulation, my suspicion that many will have to make do after an Event with what’s available, both ease and quality of sound suppression, and cheaper ammo for training.

    So with JohnnyMac’s interesting Thread Very Low Profile Option I thought revisting this might be interesting.

    #57974
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    So what in particular appeals to me about these firearms that many consider obsolete?

    First as mentioned there are a ridiculous number of these firearms in circulation in the US. I have many in my sphere that own NFA SMG’s, most with appropriate sound suppressors and even more that have PCC’s. They are a blast to shoot.

    Second, beyond a suppressed bolt action .22 (the quietest suppressed firearm I’ve ever used) the 9mm SMG/PCC is one of the easiest and quietest suppressed weapon systems available. The simple blowback action of most works well suppressed generally without modification.

    Third, a 9mm AR such as the Colt AR6951 is an outstanding training substitute for those using a AR. You can easily cut ammo costs by greater than 30% with careful shopping. Considering how much ammo we need to be using to learn/maintain proficiency, this could easily pay for itself with less than 8,000 rounds. If that seems like a lot, you haven’t been training for very long. ;-)

    I too have some potential “unique to me” roles that can be filled by non-standard firearms.

    Remember these are about my roles and will not apply to all.

    So what unique considerations/roles?

    For me caliber choice is 9mm.

    It’s already a standard stocked caliber for me. Something I am trying hard to avoid is adding other calibers to my stocks (currently 5.56, *30-30, 9mm, *.22, and 12ga/ *limited stock). I already only have stock 147 grain subsonic so I am suppressor friendly.

    The three weapons currently under consideration are the Colt 9mm Carbine, Beretta CX4 Storm, and Wilson Combat AR9b.

    Edit: Just added a forth, the PAK 9. When looking for a pic of a Krinkov braced pistol to tempt Robert in “Very Low Profile Option” Thread I discovered a AK pistol in 9mm that takes Beretta 92 magazines, the PAK 9. At around $400 it deserves a look.

    Article:

    It is imported by Chiappa, but is made by a Romanian arms factory called NOVA. It’s actually an interesting and somewhat bizarre design. The receiver is all AK, the mag well is even cut for a standard AK magazine. However, a plastic magazine block attached to the handguard allows the weapon to feed from pistol mags. The PAK 9 actually feeds from Beretta 92 magazines, and comes with two ten rounders. Beretta mags are easy to source, and I purchased two 32 rounders the same day.

    Colt 9mm Carbine:

    Older discontinued version with A1 sights.

    Beretta CX4 Storm:

    A SBR version.

    Wilson Combat AR9b:

    Glock version.


    Beretta version I am interested in.

    More to follow.

    #57979
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    The Colt 9mm Carbine is both combat and LE proven. Magazines were originally derived from Uzi magazines, not all after market mags are created equal. Prices are typically in the $950 range.

    Beretta CX4 Storm are LE proven, though primarily College and University Police. India has issued the MX4 SMG variant, interestingly enough developed after semiautomatic version. Prices are typically in the $650 range.

    Wilson Combat AR9b is a newcomer, but though controls and operation are standard AR, internals while related to the AR are newly designed. Trigger and external accessories are AR compatible. Barrel Length in either 8″ or 11.3″. Overall Length is 24.25 or 27.55″ with a empty weight of 5lbs, 6oz. or 6lbs. Prices are typically in the $1995 range.

    I like the idea of magazine compatibility with my Beretta M9.

    The Colt and Beretta are never going to be smaller without going NFA route.

    Though Sierra Papa does offer a conversion to replace existing stock with a AR type, so side folding and PDA collapsing could be possible.

    If the only issue with Colt and Beretta was size, you could have tools available to shorten them in “Post Event” situations when NFA no longer applies.

    Other than some high end products there is no pistol variant of Colt AR that I trust.

    The AR9b while related to AR’s, is really a different firearm.

    This newly discovered by me PAK 9 shows some potential. Initial teething issue seem to have been addressed. Magazine inserts for both Beretta and Glock are available. Based on the AK family, current offerings have a good reputation. It is certainly the least refined of the four, but at $200 less than even CX4. It may still be usable in what is a specialty tool. At a fifth of the price of the Wilson AR9b, you could potentially afford to even cache a few.

    More to follow.

    #58005
    Profile photo of Jamison
    Jamison
    Participant

    The Colt 9mm Carbine is both combat and LE proven. Magazines were originally derived from Uzi magazines, not all after market mags are created equal. Prices are typically in the $950 range.

    Beretta CX4 Storm are LE proven, though primarily College and University Police. India has issued the MX4 SMG variant, interestingly enough developed after semiautomatic version. Prices are typically in the $650 range.

    Wilson Combat AR9b is a newcomer, but though controls and operation are standard AR, internals while related to the AR are newly designed. Trigger and external accessories are AR compatible. Barrel Length in either 8″ or 11.3″. Overall Length is 24.25 or 27.55″ with a empty weight of 5lbs, 6oz. or 6lbs. Prices are typically in the $1995 range.

    I like the idea of magazine compatibility with my Beretta M9.

    The Colt and Beretta are never going to be smaller without going NFA route.

    Though Sierra Papa does offer a conversion to replace existing stock with a AR type, so side folding and PDA collapsing could be possible.

    If the only issue with Colt and Beretta was size, you could have tools available to shorten them in “Post Event” situations when NFA no longer applies.

    Other than some high end products there is no pistol variant of Colt AR that I trust.

    The AR9b while related to AR’s, is really a different firearm.

    This newly discovered by me PAK 9 shows some potential. Initial teething issue seem to have been addressed. Magazine inserts for both Beretta and Glock are available. Based on the AK family, current offerings have a good reputation. It is certainly the least refined of the four, but at $200 less than even CX4. It may still be usable in what is a specialty tool. At a fifth of the price of the Wilson AR9b, you could potentially afford to even cache a few.

    More to follow.

    I’d also say take a look at the scorpion evo with a gearhead tailhook. I’ve been hearing pretty good things about this weapon.

    Scorpion Evo

    I know a big thing for me in the PCC catagory would probably be mag compatability with my primary pistol. I know there are a lot of options out there for glock mags which are really good.

    But the scorpion’s 20$ per 30 round (OEM) mag isn’t too bad.

    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter-accusations.

    Nulla fatere. Nega omnia. Accusatis calumniatorem. Demanda probationem.

    #58006
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I’d also say take a look at the scorpion evo…

    CZ makes excellent firearms and the EVO is no exception.

    There is a tremendous after market support available. All reports I’ve heard regarding suppressor use is its one of the best with none of the in your face gas and particulates common in other designs.

    I know a big thing for me in the PCC catagory would probably be mag compatability with my primary pistol.

    This is the only reason I removed it from my list, if I still collected firearms I would already own both the EVO and Bren 805. I really like them.

    Using a Beretta M9 limits the choices of compatible PCC’s.

    How did the Colt 9mm Carbine make the list without compatible magazines?

    I already have it. ;-)

    Without going the NFA route it just isn’t getting smaller. :-(

    #58013
    Profile photo of RampantRaptor
    rampantraptor
    Participant

    Any opinions on the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 or Hi-Point Carbine? I’ve heard that the Hi-Points are reliable but a pain to break down for cleaning and then there’s the small magazines. The Sub-2000 at least takes common pistol mags but between that and it being able to fold in half for ease of use that’s all I know about the latter.

    Just mentioning/asking about them because they’re cheap and common enough that I see them at every gun show I go to and we’re partially discussing PCCs because of how much we can expect to encounter them post-event.

    #RaqqaSummer2017
    - - -
    Jîn, Jiyan, Azadî

    #58014
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I have no knowledge beyond what I’ve read about the Hi-Point Carbine. They just introduced a 10mm.

    Kel-Tec Sub-2000 seems to have a love it or hate it reputation. I’ve considered the one with Beretta magazines as a emergency back up/backpack role. The ones I have shot were decent enough.

    The SUB-2000 is available in the following variants:
    Smith & Wesson M&P (9mm or .40cal)
    Sig Sauer P226 (9mm or .40cal)
    Beretta 92 & 96
    Glock 17, 19, 22 & 23

    #58015
    Profile photo of Socks
    Socks
    Participant

    I owned a keltec sub2k and I liked it… BUT they can be problematic and for most issues you need to return it to Keltec and they take forever to fix anything in my experience. A fun gun but not necessarily practical in the sense of using it in a world without part and “tech” support.

    The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness.

    Robert A. Heinlein

Viewing 27 posts - 1 through 27 (of 27 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.