Tagged: We blew shit up. It was fun.
April 4, 2014 at 11:46 pm #2464
Looks like I am making myself unpopular with the WRSA gang. No more WRSA re-posts for Max V methinks!
Gotta go to sleep, got a 5 day class in the morning.
My latest/last comment to Outlaw Patriot is awaiting moderation. I will post it below I am simply very disappointed. OutlawPatriot trained last month on CRCD and he had a great time and announced he was coming back. I like him. WRSA has been very good to me, and many of you found me through WRSA. However, I won’t tolerate this kind of BS, and if that is the sort of comment I get on a video that WRSA put up (not by my asking) then I would prefer to not be re-posted in future. Sean shat all over the video that was appended to a post on target indication, without context or relevant knowledge. That is about the level I would expect from a tacticool apologist or regime operative, not someone at WRSA.
Her is the comment awaiting moderation:
outlawpatriot | April 4, 2014 at 19:45 | Reply
Mmm… Max. I don’t think it prudent to call Sean an ignoramus. The man is loved by many of us here. Not good for business if you know what I mean.
At the end of the day it will be the Vietnam vet that I will put the most faith in. And Sean is at the top of my list.
Max Velocity | April 4, 2014 at 23:13 | Reply
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I really am unconcerned. I know that you have trained with me, and you know what happens on the CRCD weekends. I find it interesting that you would defend Sean, with his gratuitously uninformed judgment on a video of some students training that wasn’t even part of the post on target indication. Any comments from Sean on the target indication post, or should target indication all be done by hand signal?
In reality, I am not concerned by your reference to criticism of Sean being ‘bad for business.’ I am concerned by standards and truth. Doing what is right. You may ‘love’ Sean, and he may be as you mention a Vietnam Vet. I know nothing of that or of what his specific experience is or even how relevant it is, and I am not part of whatever clan you have as an offshoot of WRSA,
I know what my training and experience is and I know the quality of the training that I put out.
This comment stream angers me. It is wrong.
I will judge Sean purely on the basis of what I see, which is those ill considered comments on that training video. I would ask you to scroll down and read some of the other comments.
I am disappointed that you would decide that what he has said is right, even having recently trained on my CRCD class, and having announced that you would come back.
Don’t tell me not to state the truth because it is bad for ‘business.’ My business is quality tactical/light infantry training, which I will continue to produce.
Now, I have no more time for this, I have a five day class starting in a few hours. If anyone feels that Sean’s comments are accurate, then quite simply: to hell with you.April 5, 2014 at 12:10 am #2465Joe (G.W.N.S.)Moderator
It would be interesting to see Sean’s DD214, many a Vietnam Super Warrior is not what they claim to be. He maybe a poser type or maybe just senile.
I for a long time have avoided the comments section at WRSA because of stuff like this.
I note with interest that the Forum here has exceeded the 5500 user mark, don’t think their re-posts matter.
Look forward to training with you in the future.April 5, 2014 at 12:11 am #2466AnonymousInactive
I wouldnt overly weight to all this..
Normal internet interaction/argument, fog of internet BS.
You got some guys giving excellent fire support ..April 5, 2014 at 1:27 am #2468
WRSA….. 2 years ago, my personal friend, and well known poster at WRSA, Matt Bracken, posted about mine and Diz’s gear/business. We got dumped all over 10 ways from Sunday right out of the gate, with all kinds of idiotic comments from folks who had never touched a piece of our gear. I have no use for WSRA.April 5, 2014 at 2:37 am #2469Former SapperParticipant
CA is good people, I doubt that he’ll hold it against you. This is just a classic clash of cultures, WRSA has their own culture and we here on the MVT forums have our own way of doing things.
Now where people are starting to stumble is that they’re blindly accepting someone’s word as gospel without having that person furnish qualifications. I will never ever do this.
Would you for example, me being a Sapper (a private!) expect me to teach air assault? What about armoured warfare? A weekend on amphibious assault perhaps? No. I know none of these things and so you can in fact consider me and anything I say about these to be full of shit.
Now it may turn out that Sean is some sort of SF gut eater and is thoroughly qualified to make calls like that, that’s good, that means more expertise for people to absorb and listen to.
Now I’m not saying Max is full of shit but when he says something people should absolutely be fact checking him and the same applies to me or anyone else offering advice and or expertise. Fact check, verify and if necessary call BS and confront the person offering wrong advice and believe me if I catch anyone (including Max) offering BS advice he’ll be called on it. I expect nothing less from any of you guys towards me.
1. If you want to criticise expect to be asked about your qualificatons
2. Always fact check people, this isn’t a game, this could be the difference between YOUR life and death. Literally.
3. Don’t be afraid to confront someone but do so respectfully.
4. Don’t hero worship. Everyone is fallible.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciamApril 5, 2014 at 6:16 am #2470DuaneHParticipant
Illegitimi non carborundum
OCT2009 FT Stewart
OCT2010 RBC Known Distance Rifleman
OCT2014&2015 Long Distance Rifleman
JUN2015 1000 Yds
I.C.E/JAN2011 Combat Focus Shooting
JUN2009 Fighting Pistol
JUL2009 Fighting Rifle
AUG2010 Immediate Action Medical
NOV2012 Way of the Rifle
Mountain Guerrilla/JUN2013-Irregular Warfare
TEAM COYOTE!April 5, 2014 at 6:30 am #2471
It’s a shame. Much as CA is good people, he doesn’t control the (many) idiots who comment. I have learned that free speech is one thing, but you have to moderate comments, particularly if you want things to be constructive.
Sean may be the guy who took Ho Chi Minh down in a knife/grenade fight, buy his comments are ill inconsidered, inaccurate and lack a basic understanding of training.
I have had many bad experiences from commenters over there many of the retreat sniper/extreme individual typeApril 5, 2014 at 8:11 am #2472AnonymousInactive
Sean may be the guy who took Ho Chi Minh down in a knife/grenade fight, buy his comments are ill inconsidered, inaccurate and lack a basic understanding of training.
This is what it comes down to.
Lot’s of well credentialed people out there who still post junk due to either a) the fog of the internet or b) intellectual lazinessApril 5, 2014 at 8:20 am #2474Former SapperParticipant
It’s a shame. Much as CA is good people, he doesn’t control the (many) idiots who comment.
Yep, agreed on that. What makes me laugh is that for all of their claims about being rugged individuals there is a lot of group think amongst them.
I have learned that free speech is one thing, but you have to moderate comments, particularly if you want things to be constructive.<br>
Again, agreed. Bad advice and dickheads should be confronted and either corrected to stop them from persisting rumours, innuendo or just plain wrong facts or removed from commenting altogether. I’d expect nothing less from any of you towards me but then maybe I have thicker skin and take constructive criticism and corrections to things I have wrong as a cheap lesson learned.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciamApril 5, 2014 at 10:03 am #2482JeffSagsParticipant
My Grandfathers fought in WWII and 2 of my Uncles fought in Vietnam. One was an M60 Gunner. The character Animal Mother was loosely based on him (joking!). I have nothing but respect for our veterans. With that being said, serving our country does not give you a free pass to be an asshole. Sean, whoever he is and whatever his credentials may be, made an ill informed comment and was called out. Whether the WRSA readership will accept it or not, that comment was full of chest thumping, dick measuring ego. His comment was not constructive. You can’t help the Liberty Movement by commenting on a blog post. Sean could be a green eyed Green Beret, a Sith Lord or even Chris Costa himself, but for me, Max has done more and earned my respect. Max is putting his ass on the line and training civilians in small unit self defense tactics. To my knowledge (and I think WRSA would be the #1 source for this kind of information) only 2 other guys are offering civilians training. If Vietnam Vets like Sean are offering training, where is his facility, how much does it cost and how long is the wait time to reserve a spot in a class? I’m there! WRSA is a resource like no other, but I am not going to worship some icon because the readership tells me to. It’s disappointing to see sides being taken so quickly and rational dissenting opinions being shouted down. That lends itself more to schoolyard bullying then a movement for liberty!
We’re going to have to closely monitor that sort of dynamic here. The group think, my guy is better than your guy, talking ’bout my generation culture can clearly infect any and all blogs and boards. From there it just degenerates into name calling and nothing is accomplished. No sharing of ideas, no dissemination of thoughts, no furthering of liberty. Where is that WRSA post on .gov infiltrating forums again?
CRCD AUG 13, CRCD MAR 14, CP AUG 14, CR MAR 15, Shivworks ECQC, MVT RIFLEMAN, CTT AUG 16, CQBCApril 5, 2014 at 10:32 am #2484DiznNCParticipant
This is some sad shit. Instead of banding together we are fighting each other, for no apparent reason. I thought WRSA was one of the top patriot forums but this kind of narrow-minded crap kills their credibility with me. As Hawkeye said, we were slagged over there by guys saying our gear was over-priced bullshit. This coming from some asshole who probably wouldn’t spend more than .25 on a mag pouch at the Goodwill or wherever.
And I don’t understand why the gratuitous comments about Max’s training being shit. What’s the thinking here? Just tearing someone else down for the attention or what?
Bottom line, let’s see who is out in the bush training, and who’s just sitting behind the keyboard sharp-shooting. I’d like to see that motherfucker out in the bush showing us how it’s all done.
CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, RiflemanApril 5, 2014 at 2:56 pm #2488JohnyMacMember
While reading Sean’s rant the old adage we have all heard a thousand times came to mind “Correct in private-Praise in public” This adage may not be perfect for the battle field; However it is right on target when someone is sitting in their easy chair, a beer at hand and their laptop in…well, their lap.
Whatever…I have no time for drama and Drama Queens. Life’s too short. Move on Max, you and your pose are doing a very good job!
Freedom Through Self-Reliance
www.Unchainedpreppers.com/forumApril 5, 2014 at 3:07 pm #2489AnonymousInactive
Max, when I saw that post, I immediately asked myself why this person was commenting. At first (to give the benefit of the doubt) I thought he was trying to be helpful in pointing out technical errors, even though that was not the point of the video. But reading through the entire comment it was quite clear his goal was to produce a negative critical comment, not to educate. I had the same thought as Jeff: gee, I would LOVE to see the place he conducts HIS classes, must be really special.
WRSA has some significant issues, especially surrounding the Kerodin acolytes. This Kerodin felon is constantly taking shots at Mike Vanderbough (Sipsey Street Irregulars; the guy who, along with David Codrea, is the reason we ever heard of Fast & Furious), who has done more for this country than a great many people.
There is a strong ‘clanish’ quality to the ‘Patriot’ community in some sectors, much like the rest of society. As I have frequently observed in my clinical work, sick people attract sick people. Groups coalesce around leaders and others whose “sickness” (or pathology) fits with their own. By observing a person’s thoughts, words, and actions, you learn who they are. I told you that I knew a lot about your character from reading your writings, and the CRCD class in December confirmed my initial impressions. There are others within the ‘Patriot’ community whom I would be quite reluctant to trust, much less rely on.
Meanwhile, I eagerly await Sean’s books and training classes. That way all of the bad habits I picked up in WV at Maxland can be corrected .April 5, 2014 at 3:58 pm #2494ThomasParticipant
ApoloDoc is correct: thoughts, words, and actions.
You all are wasting time on Sean. He may be a good guy who put the wrong foot forward. I don’t know. Furthermore, I don’t care. Max addressed Sean’s points. Move on to what is important. Get proficient with your rifle and get proficient with you small unit tactics.
In a firefight, after making contact, you must fix the opfor so that you can maneuver on their position. Leaving out a lot of fine points, you then close with and destroy or bypass them so that you can clean them up later. Sean’s position is now fixed. Bypass him for more high value targets. You can clean him up later.April 5, 2014 at 6:45 pm #2500D CloseModerator
Thomas, excellent metaphor, well said. Cheers to the warriors training tonight in the hills. Not just in WV, but all doing the thankless, hard work for liberty. Those are my brothers and sisters.
The only easy day was yesterdayApril 5, 2014 at 7:49 pm #2502M1-GuyParticipant
I have followed this this thread and discussion all day and thought I would throw my 2 cents in. First I am nobody special and have none of the experience that many here have. I am trying to be in contact with like minded people, absorb information and be a student of Max. My goal is to learn and pick up enough skills and knowledge to give myself and family a fighting chance when the reboot occurs.
Now that I have qualified myself (as having no qualifications), in my profession (CPA) I have learned that “words mean things”. No matter how well or poorly said, when spoken/written the speaker is telling you volumes. It is clear that Sean, knowingly or unknowingly, made an analysis without anywhere near the info needed to come to the conclusions he came to. Max corrected him point by point. Sean should have taken a deep breath and gracefully found a way to remove his foot from his mouth. He and his friends didn’t and the defensive justifications and commentary ensued.
Max is and should be proud of his “product”. I have not taken CRCD yet (slotted in the August class), however from the AAR’s, blog, commentary here and email discussions with others that have, it won’t happen soon enough.
If Max reads this my advice is to let your results do the talking. You have responded to Sean. Done. Clearly the quality and professionalism of your classes/books/forum/blog and perhaps most importantly, the AAR’s prove that you are doing something very right. As stated above maneuver past him and I would further suggest there is nothing to clean up.
One of the things I am enjoying about this forum is it is on point and on topic. We all need to work to keep it that way.
You are never out of the fight.April 5, 2014 at 9:46 pm #2505RRSParticipant
There must be a protocol for addressing issues in the team room, it comes to mind that the team room could be one of the more dangerous areas for combat personal.
Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, ExcellenceApril 6, 2014 at 2:31 am #2516JustARandomGuyParticipant
“…This is some sad shit. Instead of banding together we are fighting each other, for no apparent reason….”
Indeed. This is what I keep saying- honestly I don’t understand it. Unless it’s a real important issue that needs to be worked out, who cares?!?! I have an opinion, you have an opinion, we don’t agree- fine, drive on.
Honestly, BS like this really worries me- with half the folks in the “patriot” community apparently itching to kick off the festivities, I honestly wonder how long it would be before it all fell apart and we started fighting each other? Can you imagine? One good argument over whose tactics are better and the “New American Revolution” dies in a week, because people split up over some feels. What a crock…
I’m reminded of a a story about Miyamoto Musashi.
Once upon a time he was out in a boat crossing a lake with another swordsman. Upon learning who he was, the other swordsman challenged Musashi to a duel. He was so eager to fight, that he demanded that they travel over to a small island in the lake and duel immediately.
Musashi agreed, and they paddled over to the island. As soon as they reached the island, the other swordsman leaped out of the boat and ran up on the shore, only to find that Musashi had pushed off the boat and was calmly paddling away.
Moral of the story- Fighting critics is like fighting zombies- you shoot one down, the others hear the shot and come running.
At the end of the day if you go home and you know that you taught genuine real material in the class, and did so as best as you possibly could, does it really matter?
Let ’em talk.
I mean, seriously- who’s going to cover grenade usage in a “level 1” class?
"Time come Kimosabe, when good men must wear masks."
~TantoApril 6, 2014 at 6:23 am #2519AnonymousInactive
ONE BRIEF THOUGHT FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION:
The factors in our current society that lead to “troll” or “interwebz argument” posts (eg Sean’s attack on Max & MVT) are the same factors that lead to the NEED for what Max is teaching!
Ponder this.April 6, 2014 at 5:09 pm #2551
Funny thing about the internetz, every ChuckleMonkey has an opinion and a keyboard. The trick is not to get riled up when a button is pushed. You dont need the groupies of WRSA to approve of what you are doing, they provide good information at times, as does Sipsey Street, but that info comes at a price, and can be a drain. The Resistance is full of cranky malcontents, but its these that did and will again do the heavy lifting when its time to stop talking and do the work that needs to be done. Keep doing what you’re doing. The rest of us can do our best to not add to the BS.April 6, 2014 at 7:08 pm #2561George HaystackParticipant
I’ve been reading various liberty blogs for over a decade. Read War On Guns before Sipsey Street even existed. Found WRSA shortly after that. I’ve seen a every variety of conflict from juvenile pissing matches to serious conflicts with legal implications.
At the end of the day, we’re all on the same team. Sure, we’ve got our different opinions and plenty of us have too much ego. But Team Liberty is a good team. It’s a winning team.
The people on Team Tyranny love it when we bust each other’s balls. I’m sure they send provocateurs over here for that very purpose. We need to be bigger than all of it or they will win.
I respect Max for standing up for the truth. Funny thing is that I learned about Max from WRSA. I read both and respect both. In this case Max is probably in the right, but let’s not burn bridges just yet.
When the party starts we’re all going to need to rely on each other.April 6, 2014 at 9:34 pm #2571
Well said Mr Haystack.April 6, 2014 at 11:07 pm #2583
Sean’s background is about average for a grunt of that generation. No claim to specialness, although if he fired the old M202 his balls are bigger than mine.
I’ve done some work with CA since we met at Max’s. Good guy. I doubt he’ll control comments for a number of good reasons and I’d be disappointed if he did for anything besides threats. They routinely post stuff that’ll get you banned elsewhere. AMHIK.
I saw a couple of comments on Max’s other site under my real name. If you post stuff on the web, expect it to be shared. MFVmod already edited and scolded me about OPSEC. Which reminds me, we need to get those EEFI published.
WRSA is a clearinghouse of patriotic mischief. Use it as such.April 7, 2014 at 2:25 am #2599Yankee TerrierParticipant
Max! I think you handled Sean quite well! His style or “ilk” will be common on forums, it just goes with the territory. I found you through WRSA, and have bought EVERY book you have written twice. I intend to bring my son to Romney WV for whatever you will teach us (repeated visits) I wouldn’t give up on WRSA I would more keep in mind the immortal words of P.T. Barnum. “I don’t care what you say about me just spell my name right”.April 7, 2014 at 8:06 am #2606AnonymousInactive
. The Resistance is full of cranky malcontents, but its these that did and will again do the heavy lifting when its time to stop talking and do the work that needs to be done. .
I think the above sums it up nicely.
The type of personalities that are attracted to our view of the world are more, rather than less, likely to be cranky types.
Just the nature of the beastApril 7, 2014 at 8:37 am #2610DiznNCParticipant
Well I did finally go look at the thread since posting, and I gotta admit, the guy admitted he went off half-cocked, and took his lumps about it.
While I recognize the fact that the patriot movement includes a bunch of crotchety old fuckers, hell I AM a crotchety old fucker, I still think there’s no need for so much chest-pounding, hair-pulling, and other assorted macho silliness.
CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, RiflemanApril 7, 2014 at 9:50 am #2620RRSParticipant
Last weekend Max asked me why I was so quiet, easy enough to answer, point blank said “I’m paying you to talk.” He might have gotten a bit ruffled but what I meant is that to get the most out of training for the effort and all that I put into it I shut my mouth and absorb what the trainer has to say. It quite easy for a session to be derailed by the trainees, luckily for us that Max has the natural authority to shut that crap up and keep the class focused on the training not the man drama.
Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, ExcellenceApril 7, 2014 at 12:40 pm #2638
I’ve avoided commenting on this here or at WRSA because I really don’t have a dog in this fight. In my opinion what happened between Sean and Max is for them to sort out and it’s none of my business.
But RRS and Diz both coined a couple of phrases that I think illustrate the heart of why this sort of thing happens:
Diz: …”chest-pounding, hair-pulling, and other assorted macho silliness.”
RRS: “…man drama.”
Anyone who has spent much time in male-dominated cultures such as the military (especially exclusively male areas such as the infantry) is all too familiar with what Diz and RRS so eloquently describe. It would be better if that stuff could be kept at a dull roar, but unfortunately it’s an occupational hazard and the fog of the intardwebz inevitably acts as an aggravating factor.April 8, 2014 at 12:44 pm #2722PericlesParticipant
FWIW, the Vietnam vet militia adulation probably stems from the early days of the militia movement when militia guys looked to the Vietnam vets with admiration for honorable service under bad conditions and the perception that type of experience of the Vietnam vets was the model for militia training. On the part of the vets, being respected by at least this part of society may have lead a few to embellish their experience somewhat for an appreciative audience.
As far as Sean’s statement about his background and service – I’ll agree that is is normal for an infantryman with those service dates, with this exception: Obtaining Ranger or SF qualification while stationed in Europe is not something that could be done AFIK. Ranger qualification has required attendance at the Infantry School course of instruction since the late 1950s, and SF quit awarding the Green Beret for on the job training late in the Vietnam War, requiring the “Q-course” at the SWC.
If he has it on his DD-214, it is legit, which is why in our group, any vet needs to be able to show your 214 (or foreign equivalent) when requested.
Fighting communists was a lot more fun when it was a group effort conducted overseas, and not an insurgency here at home.April 8, 2014 at 1:09 pm #2726
He wouldn’t have obtained the Additional Skill Identifiers (ASI) for SF and Ranger from those courses. Training was offered in/by units in those days and, IIRC, were noted on documents for official purposes. Shouldn’t be confused with the Q Course and I don’t get the sense Sean was claiming that.
Way BITD, Ranger training was unit training. I’ve no idea when that ended. Ranger School has always been a formal leadership school with individual awards and an ASI.
I don’t particularly care about 214s. I’d rather the guy show up and perform. I can’t tell you who will perform in combat, but I can absolutely tell you who won’t: The guy running his mouth about how great he is.
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