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US mil camouflage

This topic contains 19 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Andrew Andrew 1 year, 10 months ago.

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  • #43107
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    I picked this up from WRSA.
    Camo

    This is pretty interesting. A lot of time and money goes into choosing a good pattern (except in the case of UCP). Then in pictures I see soldiers wearing solid color or other pattern chest rigs, web gear, backpacks, etc… which covers up the effective camo uniform.

    There will be no universal pattern until the invisibility cloak is issued.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #43111
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Curious – I see people camied up but can’t sit/stay still. From a hunting perspective (and SWAT sniper), I was always taught movement catches the eye first. So barring the obvious of outrageous colors, how much does camouflage actually play (as opposed to just staying still)?

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #43118
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    We’ve discussed HyperStealth’s information before and it has lot of good material.

    Camouflage can aid in your concealment, but proper movement and fieldcraft is far more important than camouflage.

    #43119
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    Yes, camo is a bit it’s rabbit hole. For most of our applications, I am more concerned with what I am wearing from a perception standpoint. Interactions etc.

    So yes, the ‘fashion’ of it is important for how you are perceived when not ‘hidden.’

    Mostly, movement​, poor tactical sense and lack of field craft give people away. Mostly birdlike head movements.

    You can work in blue jeans if you know what you are doing. Earth tone solids, whatever-cam, is all good.

    #43123
    Profile photo of Free Chicken Dinner
    RRS
    Participant

    I spend many hours hunting, we hunters can spot on shape.

    Never hunted men, but my offhand guess is that the weapon would be the give away. I can imagine the head bobbing being a tell tale as well.

    Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, Excellence

    #43124
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    I have deer hunted in blue jeans. Most of the designer hunting patterns look great up close, but blend to a single, dark color at distance. From 100yd game may be seeing what I see at 10yds, IDK.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #43126
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    I have sat in a 6 foot tripod, with the wind blowing in my face (that’s important), wearing cheap “leafy” camo netting style smock and pants and had an old 8 pt. buck come to the base of the tripod and stare at me for about 2 minutes before he walked off. The key to that whole deal was that I did not move a muscle once he saw me on the tripod.

    I have been “made” by does at various distances beyond 50 yards or so. They knew something was up, snorted, stomped their feet, etc., and when I didn’t move, they went back to their normal routine of feeding.

    IIRC, the blue in jeans appears as a yellow to deer eyes because their rods and cones aren’t configured like ours.

    #43127
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Most of the designer hunting patterns look great up close, but blend to a single, dark color at distance.

    All current camouflage is perceived as a solid average color at distance.

    The question is does the average blend with the average color of your terrain? That is one of the reasons behind wearing a different color or pattern blouse and pants comes from.

    With animals there are relatively recent studies suggesting many animals can see into parts of the UV spectrum, the potential good thing from our perspective is the dyes used to eliminate UV glow also work in the NIR.

    This means some of the better hunting patterns can work well when observed by electro optical equipment such as night vision devices.

    This is something to verify with even aftermarket military patterns as some of them have issues with NIR, even without washing with detergent containing brighteners. Make sure you understand about the possible negative effects of brighteners.

    Again as previously stated color; or in this case colors of the pattern, is a small part of target detection.

    #43129
    Profile photo of Chris
    Chris
    Participant

    My military skills/service is ancient history but my hunting skills are not… as RRS said, Hunters spot shape but we also spot parts/pieces/and lines that ‘just don’t look right’. Movement is the biggest indicator. Notice that animals are not painted in the latest camo pattern and many, many people fail to spot animals when they are out and about. Subdued colors work just fine IMHO.
    Fieldcraft will trump Camo every time…

    Now that I'm over 50 I realize that my People Skills are fine...it is my tolerance of Idiots that needs work.

    #43130
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Notice that animals are not painted in the latest camo pattern and many, many people fail to spot animals when they are out and about. Subdued colors work just fine IMHO.
    Fieldcraft will trump Camo every time…

    I can’t count the number of times when eye-sweeping the feeder, nothing is there. Sweep it again and 1-3 doe are there eating corn. AO is central TX.

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #43133
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Hunters spotting shape. I can’t tell you how many does I’ve seen that were prickly pear cactus. Looked like “she” was looking right at me.

    #43138
    Profile photo of Chris
    Chris
    Participant

    Andrew, you’re not alone! I’ve seen those cactus deer too!!!! It is my belief that they are possessed by Indian Spirits, and when you look at them again they turn themselves into cactus ?. I don’t shoot them though…I usually just sneak up on them slowly and methodically, then dispatch them with my knife. The magical transformation must do something to the meat though because when I cook em up on the BBQ they taste a lot like cactus and nothing like venison ?.
    Seriously though, Movement is this thing that usually catches a person’s eye and I do believe ‘Fieldcraft trumps Camo’… ?

    Now that I'm over 50 I realize that my People Skills are fine...it is my tolerance of Idiots that needs work.

    #43139
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Let’s review detection methods:

    Movement: Moving in a static environment or not moving in a dynamic environment. Always the number one indicator.

    Shine/reflection: Reflective surfaces such as metal, glass, plastic, wet skin, etc.

    Shape: Shapes draw attention, regardless of what we are looking for our mind will try to acquire and make identification of objects that fit our perception. The
    “Cactus Deer” from above as one example. Additionally in non-urban terrain there are few straight lines such as gun barrels or symmetrical curves such as helmets.

    Silhouette: Contrasts against a dissimilar background such as skylines, bodies of water, etc…

    Color: Blaze orange vs green forest, a extreme example. We can also add texture in this category since dissimilar textures reflect spectrums differently.

    Shadow: We all have developed at least some ability to correlate shape from shadows as well as movement.

    Spacing: With the exception of man planned agriculture, regular spaced objects form a pattern, and this pattern will draw attention.

    Remember while we lose some of the above with Night Vision, the remaining indicators still apply, additionally advanced Thermal Optics replace color with temperature, yet texture still applies.

    #43140
    Profile photo of Free Chicken Dinner
    RRS
    Participant

    The one issue that comes to mind with civvy camo is that the clothing choices suck, I prefer BDU material and cut. I’m in the market for a shirt/jacket and I’ve narrowed it down to MTP, multicam or ATACS FG.

    Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, Excellence

    #43141
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    @joe,

    NICE review!! :good:

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #43142
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I’m in the market for a shirt/jacket and I’ve narrowed it down to MTP, multicam or ATACS FG.

    The above mentioned HyperStealth site has a lot of technical information in the U.S. Army Phase IV Camouflage Improvement Program section if interested.

    Otherwise what works for you, works.

    For most of our applications, I am more concerned with what I am wearing from a perception standpoint. Interactions etc.

    So yes, the ‘fashion’ of it is important for how you are perceived when not ‘hidden.’

    As Max touched on, hunting camo is ubiquitous in my AO, yet all current military patterns stand out as unique.

    Note: Unique in a negative way. Military pattern camo is accepted for Military Active/Reserve and children. For adults it’s considered weird and cause for caution. These negative stereotypes exist in many areas.

    It’s worth noting that Max and myself have mentioned concern about how peoples perceptions of us affect things. Though we both have a somewhat different take on it.

    YMMV

    #43144
    Profile photo of Free Chicken Dinner
    RRS
    Participant

    Thanks Joe. It’s a deep rabbit hole

    Tactical training for Liberty, Fraternity, Excellence

    #43168
    Profile photo of Roadkill
    Roadkill
    Participant

    In my area if you’re wearing a multi cam shirt with an MVT patch people will thank you for your service. ?

    RS/CTT Nov 16
    HEAT1 Aug18

    #43177
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I’ve worn Multicam, woodland and coyote in the grocery store at different times and no one gave me a second look.

    #43189
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Here, in most of Texas, camo is not unusual. Deer season starts, for bow hunters in October, in November rifle season opens up and lasts, in most places until the middle of January. If you have a Managed Lands Permit (MLD) your season can last longer.

    Also, for varmints, hogs, and exotics, you can hunt year around, including at night, for most of them. Just gotta have a license.

    Add to that that people go out and check their leases during the off season to fill feeders, whatever, and you see folks in camo year round.

    Military camo, though doesn’t show up as often, but it is still not that out of place.

    Depends on where you live. All black might get the cops called in to check it out. Same way with being cammo’ed up and open carrying.

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