Small Unit Tactics contact patriot-dawn Patriot Rising

Weapons and Gear Observations from CRS class

Home Forums The Armory – Gear and Equipment Weapons and Gear Observations from CRS class

This topic contains 53 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of DiznNC DiznNC 2 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 24 posts - 31 through 54 (of 54 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #36638
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    Something many people don’t know (apparently) about the gun industry goes for the auto and food industry among others – there are relatively few suppliers for all the “parts” in these industries. For upper and lower receivers, one company forges (unless billet), another finishes (CNC) and yet another (like BCM) assembles and sells. Most “Manusemblers” are pretty mum on who their suppliers are – particularly those who sell finished weapons. Yes, some make or finish certain components of their builds so I call them Manusemblers.

    As for Aero Precision – it’s well known they white label lowers for dozens of brands and are very well regarded in the industry for uppers/lowers – YMMV on their other offerings. Plus, I’ll throw my personal exp. with them to vouch – 7 perfectly fit/functioning rifles.

    Really, what you’re buying from a Manusembler like BCM is QC – and that is a premium worth paying for. Flame away… :rose:

    Nail, meet hammer.

    That is what people refuse to understand. The QA/QC is what you are paying extra for. And it is worth every damn penny.

    Any opinion on Spike’s Tactical? I have a lower/LPK that has been going strong for 5k+ rounds now/so far. They seem to have a decent reputation.

    Is it one of the companies that I have listed above?

    There are rifles from the manufacturer’s that I have not listed that people have never had a problem with. But if you start researching, you will find that those have a higher propensity to crap out during hard use. We see it in classes at MVT. You see it in classes taught elsewhere.

    MVT strives to make sure you have the best training available. We also want to make sure you have the best gear, hence the gear that is designed and sold by MVT. We also want to make sure you make the right choices when it comes to a fighting rifle. The recommended companies have a track record of putting out good, quality rifles and components.

    Some of you probably think I am beating a dead horse, but I won’t stop putting the information out there and it is why I keep bringing it up.

    I will not recommend other companies rifles for the same reason I will not recommend a High Point for pistols and I will not recommend Condor or Voodoo for gear.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #36644
    Profile photo of Thomas
    Thomas
    Participant

    First Sergeant has repeated himself several times. More times than I would have.

    This is really simple. Read the list. If your rifle is on the list, good on you. If not, quit asking if it is good to go. Your rifle may fall into the category of special snowflake. It may never fail you. I hope that is the case. BUT, you bet YOUR life on it and the lives of YOUR family.

    There are some guys on this forum that have eaten a lot of dirt. Along the way they learned important lessons and have shared those lessons. Those with whom they have shared may choose to listen. Or not.

    If your rifle is not one of the listed marks, do what you can to make it as reliable as possible. The listed rifles have been combat proven in the hands of the conventional army or the special operations community. If your rifle is not on list, quit asking if it is good to go. It’s not. :unsure:

    #36650
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    I need an opinion on the utility/trustworthiness of Spikes Tactical and/or CMMG rifles for CTT and “operational” use. Any experience with either at the classes?

    #36686
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    The problem with these kinds of threads is that they need to be updated frequently. QC in the industry is a moving target. I remember when Bushmaster built a solid rep, then when orders exceeded capacity, they cut corners and quality suffered. They fixed it eventually but then you have guys saying how good and bad Bushy is. Well depends on the time frame. This appears to be the problem with PSA. They had great shit, everybody bought it, told their buddies, and then I guess they had the same QC guy who knuckled under to corporate pressure and let QC slip. This is exactly what happen at Para when Remington took over and also why I left. I have seen this time and again in the last 30 years in the industry.

    I like PSA, 1st Sgt doesn’t. Who’s right? Both of us. Though it would appear that you’d be wise to check fire until they get squared away.

    I guess the ultimate answer here is to have known quality parts as 3-D blueprints, which you then compare any new purchase part to. Doesn’t matter who the vendor is, you might get a “fish” at some time or another.

    Which means you need to be or know a good armorer who can check this stuff for you.

    We appreciate 1st Sgt here cuz he is providing this to you on line. But understand this advice is not fire and forget.

    Andrew: I’ve had several friend with Spikes stuff and it has been solid so far. Have not seen much of CMMG rifles but their LPK’s are some of the best stock kits on the market. If I didn’t know anything else, I would trust BCM for a good upper, and build everything else pretty much from what’s available. The lower is pretty hard to fuck, although some have tried.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

    #36691
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Thanks Diz, but if a lower can be fucked, I’d be the guy to do it. But seriously, I’d have to watch it a few times and then try it, with adult supervision, before I’d try it. Probably gonna go with Spikes unless I can find a Colt closet to the same price and then sell off some of the “entry level” stuff I have.

    Anyway, thanks again.

    #36694
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    I need an opinion on the utility/trustworthiness of Spikes Tactical and/or CMMG rifles for CTT and “operational” use. Any experience with either at the classes?

    I have a Spikes rifle or more correctly an upper and a lower. I have had it for several years and is what I have done most of my training with. I also ran a M&P sport I thru CTT without any maint. to see what happened. Both were reliable for me. That is all I can say though as my experience does not match Scott’s depth.

    #36695
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Thanks, appreciate the info.

    #36702
    Profile photo of SeanT
    SeanT
    Moderator

    to add some info about QC etc…
    I worked a while in a job-shop machine shop running a mill.

    We ran all sorts of things. I ran electrical junction boxes for M1A1 tanks and I also made wheels for fork lifts and all sorts of other stuff in between.

    All sorts of things can screw up a run. Poor fitting the raw stock into the jigs, castings with flash in the wrong place, to a tool breaking during the run or even a cutting tool that is out of spec or maybe dull, etc.

    Some runs I would pull and measure the critical dimensions every 100 and some it was every third. It all depended on how much tolerance was allowed.

    Some guys were good at this and some not so good as others. Sometimes an iffy part went in the ‘good’ pile because they were a pain in the ass to make or the machine setup was changed for a different part.

    When it really mattered, we took the part into what was pretty much a clean room with high precision measuring equipment with a single dude who checked the specs. Nobody touched those tools except him. Ever.

    How close to the center of the tolerance spec was how we determined how ‘good’ the operator was. Some jobs had to be done FAST and the variations were wider, some had to be done RIGHT and they were very close or would end in the scrap bin.

    #36718
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    SeanT is describing exactly what goes on in a machine shop. Lots of variables. Vendor parts comes in that are slightly out of spec. New operators trained for 2d shift may be a little off. Management wants more parts and corners get cut. I’m sorry to hear that PSA is going through a rough patch. I hope they get their shit back together.

    Any of you guys that bought stuff from them that might be questionable, call or email them with what you’ve heard, ask what the return policy is. I guarantee once mgt here’s about this kind of feedback, something will happen.

    But back to the OP, I’m not sure I understand why peeps keep showing up to class with the same issues. Maybe include some of this stuff or at least references to it in the info packet? Dunno. Between the 1st Sgt, Max, and others, this shit has been extensively covered in posts on this website.

    I mean yeah you can show up and you will get this stuff sorted out, but why not do some prep beforehand and get the maximum out of class time.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

    #36737
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    Thanks Diz, but if a lower can be fucked, I’d be the guy to do it. But seriously, I’d have to watch it a few times and then try it, with adult supervision, before I’d try it. Probably gonna go with Spikes unless I can find a Colt closet to the same price and then sell off some of the “entry level” stuff I have.

    Anyway, thanks again.

    How much are you looking to spend? Give me a figure and I can point you in the right direction.

    Diz is right. Things change. Right now you need to pay very close attention to stuff that you are buying.

    Companies were getting ramped up for another panic after the election. Now there is no panic.

    I don’t know this for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you start seeing a lot of sales on AR”s and parts. Distributors and gun shops are going to be sitting on a lot of inventory that they stocked up on in anticipation of another round of panic buying.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #36738
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Distributors and gun shops are going to be sitting on a lot of inventory that they stocked up on in anticipation of another round of panic buying.

    I think this is a real possibility. :yes:

    #36740
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Distributors and gun shops are going to be sitting on a lot of inventory that they stocked up on in anticipation of another round of panic buying.

    That’s been my hope since last Wednesday morning when the news broke. I’m looking at spending probably around a grand, plus or minus $50 to $100 bucks. Preferably minus.

    Websites I’ve been looking at are Primary Arms http://www.primaryarms.com/MCategories+AR-15-Complete-Guns

    and

    https://www.tombstonetactical.com/

    I’ve purchased from Primary Arms before. No fuss and quick delivery.

    #36747
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    That’s been my hope since last Wednesday morning when the news broke. I’m looking at spending probably around a grand, plus or minus $50 to $100 bucks. Preferably minus.

    Standard Colt 6920. $999.00
    http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920

    Colt 6920 OEM1. $760.00
    http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6920-OEM1

    The OEM1 is route that I suggest a lot of people go. Add whatever forearm, stock and trigger guard you want. If you went with all Magpul furniture, you would come in way under your $1000.00 mark.

    G&R is a good company to deal with. I have done business witht hem in the past.

    Or check out Gunbroker. Here is a search that I did for Colt 6920 OEM1, Buy it Now. All for the same money as listed above.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/BrowseItems2.aspx?Keywords=colt+6920+oem1&BuyNowOnly=1&Sort=4&Tab=2&Cats=0

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #36752
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    Good info. I won’t tell you guys not to buy colt; if it’s good quality and available at a good price. I just won’t personally own one after all the shit they pulled, which is from my time, not yours, so hey everyone carry on.

    Good point about the sales forecast leading up to the election. practically everyone was expecting the cunt to win, so yeah I’d expect to see some sales on a bunch of shit, and yeah QC might be suspect. There’s a reason why you listen to the 1st Sgt guys.

    I would find your local AR guru, ply him with beer, and have him check out anything you’re interested in.

    If you’re getting ready for class, ask the 1st Sgt or myself about what you have or are looking at. Be glad to help you get ready for class. That’s kinda the whole point to this forum, IMHO, although we do get out into the weeds here n there.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

    #36755
    Profile photo of Dennis W
    Dennis W
    Participant

    I tried to get a Colt 6920 OEM1 through my local gun dealer. He spent about a week trying to get one, so I did the Buy it Now on Gun Broker and had it shipped to my dealer. He did not charge me their normal transfer fee because he was unable to get one from his suppler. It was right at $800.00 with shipping and got it in 3 days.

    MTV Alumni - N. Central Florida
    Sept 27 – Oct 03 2014 TC3-CTT-CP + NODF
    RC1, RC2, Rifleman 2015
    Sept 2016 Run & Gun/ CQB
    Oct 2016 FOF

    #36756
    Profile photo of BrigandActual
    BrigandActual
    Participant

    I’m glad to see Colt is catching up with the rest of the AR world buy adding midlengths to their lineup. Going forward, those will probably be my top recommendation for complete rifles.

    Another brand not mentioned so far is Sionics Weapon Systems. They don’t have the recognition of Colt, DD, or BCM, but the guys in charge and their engineers seem to know what they are doing. They have brought in a few well known industry vets. That said, their prices for complete rifles are higher than comparable BCM offerings.

    "Man is still the first weapon of war" - Field Marshal Montgomery

    Matt B - VA

    #36786
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    I have reached out to PSA for some kind of explanation for these suspected QC slips. Will see what their response is.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

    #36792
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Looking forward to their reply.

    #36821
    Profile photo of Support Side
    ffhounddog
    Participant

    I brought a Troy and one of my LWRCi Rifles to the class I went to and just ran the Troy Defense Rifle. It worked well but I just wish these “LE” only variations they would stop using AR15 bcgs. Granted it runs but I keep thinking of adding a new BCG just because I liked the rifle so much it’s become my Goto training rifle when not running a 10.5 SBR. I have had a few good outings with my Armalite DEF15F I ordered last June because I did not have a 16 inch Carbine Rifle to play around with, all middies or SBRs. It’s a nice Rifle but not set up for anything right no. I still have skim hand guards on it. My old 3 gun rifle was built by Armalite but now the lower is all that is left as Armalite. With the Price of Colts OEM and the Aero Precision OEM models I would just go that direction. My Troy Cost me $850 but it was the American gunfighter program.

    I like Chrome lining but the Melonited barrels seem to work to. I have less o a dog in that cat fight. I prefer chrome because I am use to it.

    Support Side. Not flattering but better than weak side.

    #36826
    Profile photo of Trailman
    trailman
    Participant

    I have reached out to PSA for some kind of explanation for these suspected QC slips. Will see what their response is.

    lol good luck with that.

    CRM, CTT 1501, CP11/15, CTT5/16, FoF, DCH, CLC Opfor, Team Minion

    Just remember, Anne Frank was a criminal because the government made her one and she died because she broke the law.

    #36843
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    Well I’m going down that way next week so I plan on stopping by and asking WTF. I’ve recommended this brand to lots of folks so I want to know whether there’s a problem here or not.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

    #36844
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    QC is always a moving target even for the best companies. Just ask a Mercedes or BMW owner who got a lemon ;) That’s why I like doing builds – if you buy HPT/MPI inspected bolts and barrels and the rest of the parts are in spec (they fit) – you are gonna be GTG.

    #36950
    Profile photo of The Hobbit
    The Hobbit
    Participant

    Just want to throw my experiences out.
    I ran a PSA complete build from around the
    Same period as max’s loaners. I ran into no
    Rifle related issues. I even found upon cleaning it when I got home that one gas ring is busted. Getting replacement rings soon. The only issue I had was my PA optic mounts coming loose. As I didnt have proper tools to remedy the issue. Hoping to upgrade to a Acogin the near future and maybe a new rifle.

    I also didn’t have issues with the half dozen psalms magazines I ran the others I have sitting may prove problematic IDK.

    Just wanted to pass along my experience. Ymmv

    #37061
    Profile photo of DiznNC
    DiznNC
    Participant

    Yeah this has also been my experience with PSA, but now, yeah they are suspect.

    CTT 1505, NODF 1505, CP 1503, LN 1, RC II, Rifleman

Viewing 24 posts - 31 through 54 (of 54 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.