Small Unit Tactics contact patriot-dawn Patriot Rising

What are your thoughts on this disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi?

Home Forums Information & Intelligence What are your thoughts on this disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi?

This topic contains 23 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.) Joe (G.W.N.S.) 4 months ago.

Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #63468
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Here is some background information.

    Who is Jamal Khashoggi?

    Prominent journalist Khashoggi is feared dead after his October 2 disappearance inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

    Jamal Khashoggi is one of the most prominent Saudi and Arab journalists and political commentators of his generation, owing to a career that has spanned nearly 30 years.

    Born in Medina in 1958, Khashoggi was once close to the inner circles of the Saudi royal family, where he earned his reputation as a reformist by pushing the boundaries of critically questioning Saudi’s regional and domestic policies.

    The young Khashoggi studied journalism at Indiana University in the United States and began his career as a correspondent for the English language Saudi Gazette newspaper.

    From 1987 until 1990, he reported for the London-based and Saudi-owned Asharq Al-Awsat daily. He also spent eight years writing for the pan-Arab Al-Hayat newspaper.

    Khashoggi is best known for coverage of the events of Afghanistan, Algeria, Kuwait and the Middle East in the 1990s. He met and interviewed Osama bin Laden several times in the middle of the decade, before the latter went on to become the leader of the al-Qaeda group.

    In 1999, Khashoggi became the deputy editor for the Saudi-run newspaper Arab News, and remained in that position for four years. His next position as the editor-in-chief of the Al-Watan paper barely lasted two months before he was dismissed from the post without explanation in 2003. However, some hinted his “editorial policy” was to blame.

    The journalist then became a media adviser to Prince Turki bin Faisal, who was the former head of Saudi Arabia’s General Intelligence Directorate and served as the Saudi ambassador to the US from 2005 until the end of 2006.

    Khashoggi was reinstated as the editor of Al-Watan in 2007, but was fired again in 2010, for “pushing the boundaries of debate within Saudi society” according to his personal website.

    In the same year, Khashoggi was appointed as general manager of the Al Arab news channel, which was owned by Prince Alwaleed bin Talal and operated out of Manama, Bahrain. The channel shut down barely one day after its launch in February 2015, with some speculating that the hosting of a Bahraini opposition member was part of the larger editorial issue with Bahrain.

    Khashoggi also served as a political commentator, appearing on a number of Saudi and Arab channels.

    ‘Ordered to shut up’

    Following the rapid rise through the ranks of Mohammed bin Salman (MBS), Khashoggi lent his voice to call out the crown prince’s policies at home, particularly after promises of reform were followed by a wave of arrests and repression.

    Princes, prominent businessmen, activists, and Muslim leaders were not spared from the crackdown, which was orchestrated by MBS.

    Khashoggi continued to write, and advocate for freedom of speech in his country, and in September 2017 he criticised the classification of the Muslim Brotherhood as terrorists by Saudi Arabia.

    In a post on Twitter, he wrote: “For a while now, I have found that anyone who believes in reform, change, the Arab Spring, and freedom, and those who are proud of their religion and their country is labelled as being part of the Muslim Brotherhood. It seems that the Brotherhood’s school of thought is noble.”

    Due to his candour, Khashoggi’s presence in the kingdom was becoming more precarious by the day and eventually, he moved to Washington, DC, after revealing that he was “ordered to shut up”.

    In the same month, he published an article with The Washington Post under the title “Saudi Arabia wasn’t always this repressive. Now it’s unbearable”.

    Khashoggi shared it on Twitter and wrote, “I was not happy to publish this article on The Washington Post, but silence does not serve my country or those detained.”

    The post earned the ire of Prince Khaled Al Saud, the governor of Mecca province, who criticised him on Twitter. “Our guided leadership does not need advice from you and your likes,” Saud shot back.

    A few months later, in December, Al-Hayat newspaper ended its relationship with him and banned his writings, citing Khashoggi’s perceived “transgressions against Saudi Arabia”.

    Critiquing Saudi policies

    During his stay in Washington, DC, he participated in many activities to defend freedoms and rights.

    In his new role as opinions editor for The Washington Post, Khashoggi became more vocal about his criticism of MBS, likening him to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

    In a May 21 column for The Washington Post, he wrote: “We are expected to vigorously applaud social reforms and heap praise on the crown prince while avoiding any reference to the pioneering Saudis who dared to address these issues decades ago.

    “We are being asked to abandon any hope of political freedom, and to keep quiet about arrests and travel bans that impact not only the critics but also their families.

    Khashoggi also called out MBS’ “impulsivity” as displayed in the debacle of Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri’s forced resignation from Riyadh (once back in Beirut, Hariri retracted his notice) to Saudi’s role in the Yemen war.

    In a September 2018 article titled “Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Must Restore Dignity to His Country – by Ending Yemen’s Cruel War” he urged the kingdom “to face the damage that resulted from more than three years of war in Yemen”.

    He also wrote that Saudi Arabia “cannot afford to pick fights with Canada”, referring to a spat between the two countries over Canada’s criticism of human rights in the kingdom.

    Saudi consulate vanishing

    On October 2, Khashoggi flew to Istanbul and entered the Saudi consulate to obtain documents that would seal his marriage to his Turkish fiancee, Hatice Cengiz.

    To date, he has not been heard from again, with Turkish security announcing on Saturday that they believe he has been killed.

    “We believe that the murder was premeditated and the body was subsequently moved out of the consulate,” a Turkish official told the Reuters news agency.

    On the other hand, the Saudi consul in Istanbul, Mohammed al-Otaibi, said that “the citizen, Jamal Khashoggi, is not in the consulate or in Saudi Arabia.”

    “The consulate and the embassy are making efforts to search for Khashoggi and we are concerned,” he said.

    On Sunday, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan told reporters that authorities were looking into all video surveillance footage of the mission’s entrances and monitoring all inbound and outbound flights since the writer disappeared.

    “I am following the [issue] and we will inform the world whatever the outcome [of the official probe]”, Erdogan said.

    “God willing, we will not be faced with a situation we do not want. I still am hopeful.”

    In his colleagues’ words

    The Washington Post described Khashoggi as one of the “eminent thinkers in their fields and countries”.

    His colleague at the Post Jason Rezaian wrote that Khashoggi presented to readers “insightful commentary and sharp criticism about the seemingly impenetrable country.

    “But despite his criticisms of his homeland, Jamal consistently expressed his love for it and his desire to return, always reiterating his belief that Saudi Arabia could and would do better,” Rezaian said.

    Karen Attiah, Khashoggi’s editor, said of his disappearance: “We are not going to let this go.

    “As his editor, I can say that what comes through in conversations with him is how honestly he loves Saudi Arabia and its people and feels that it is his duty to write what he sees to be the truth about the kingdom’s past, present and future,” Attiah wrote.

    David Hearst, editor-in-chief of news website Middle East Eye, said that Khashoggi was a “loyal Saudi”.

    “He did not consider himself a dissident,” Hearst told Al Jazeera, describing Khashoggi as “very moderate, mild” with “sensible things to say.

    “He said you cannot have an economic reform unless you have a political reform. These are the views of a reformer, not a revolutionary. Unfortunately, the Saudi regime is such that it cannot stomach even moderate criticism and this is what they do to moderate critics,” Hearst said.

    Bill Law, a Middle East analyst, wrote that he fears for Khashoggi’s life.

    “He is a good man and a fine journalist,” Law wrote. “His is a voice of reasoned criticism and wise comment that the Saudi crown prince should listen to.”

    So what if any thoughts do you have?

    #63477
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    At first blush I think it is none of the US’s beeswax. That being said, it is now apparent that the Saudis had a hand in it and we need to a greater or lesser degree distances ourselves from them.

    Lastly, I can think of a whole slew of MSM reporters that need to be rounded up, put on a plane and marched into a Saudi embassy. ;-)

    #63478
    Profile photo of WTL
    veritas556
    Participant

    Ditto what @Andrew said. For once, can we please stay the fluck out of other countries business. That would be a good start. However unlikely that may be…

    #63480
    Profile photo of GreenTip
    GreenTip
    Participant

    This is what these people do. No shock. Business as usual.

    #63482
    Profile photo of Virgil Kane
    Virgil Kane
    Participant

    My first thought is that I don’t want to piss off the resident pathologist.

    Masters II
    Georgia
    June 2017 Intro CQB, FOF-Team Deplorables
    October 2017 MVT South - CTT/DA
    March 2018 DCH

    #63484
    Profile photo of RampantRaptor
    rampantraptor
    Participant

    Saudi Arabia is a country run by Wahhabists.

    Turkey is a country run by a guy who would be happy to recreate the Ottoman Caliphate.

    Saudi Arabia commits war crimes in Yemen with US weapons, Turkey backs jihadists in Syria with US weapons.

    Both are playing this as hard as they can to claim leadership over the Sunni world, and hopefully get the Americans to take sides to the other’s detriment.

    Fuck both of these countries.

    #RaqqaSummer2017
    - - -
    Jîn, Jiyan, Azadî

    #63485
    Profile photo of Abacus
    Abacus
    Participant

    Make no mistake, it is a pretty screwed up thing to do. I am as a rule against killing people who I disagree with unless they are expressing their disagreement through dealy violence aimed at me or mine. I am however, not surprised the guy was killed. The murder of critics by authoritarian regimes is a bit of a defining feature for that style of government. I am mildly surprised they were as blatant as they appear to have been in this instance. But then again, after reading Joe’s rundown on how much of a pain this guy was being to the regime, it is a little weird it took so long for him to be “dealt” with.

    To me, Saudi Arabia has exactly two things going for it as an ally.

    1) They sell oil using US dollars and keep everybody else doing so. By doing that they allow us to exert more influence on the region through them as a proxy. This is nice, but not as important now that fracking and such not has turned the US into a net energy exporter and wrecked a lot of bad guy states petro-chemical based economies. There will come a day when the gulf states will be as important to the west as they were in the time between the end of the silk road and when BP found oil, or rather not very important at all.

    2) They hate Iran almost as much as Iran says they hate us. Some folks might think this makes them our friend, but that is silly. They are at best our “not enemy” for right now. Consequently, every time I hear someone, especially a senior officer or government official utter the “enemy of my enemy” trope I want to hit them with a stick. But that is a rant for another time. Just remember you can’t buy loyalty, at best you can rent it. Further nations don’t really have friends, only interests. Sometimes one nation’s interest line up with another, but this is seldom a till death do us part type union.

    Otherwise the Kingdom is a terrible partner. They share very few of our post enlightenment political values. Their culture is largely incompatible with Western views on human rights (due in my opinion to a difference in how human life is valued). And they absolutely are responsible for much of the Sunni half of the world’s Islamism and consequently Islamic extremism. Seriously, Iran supports the Shiite extremists. Who do we think supports the Sunni side of that coin? Who pays for all those Madrasas that teach kids its cool to be a head cutting, IED planting, plane crashing lunatics? Some of it comes from other gulf states, but my money is on the big kingdom with all the money and Mecca within its borders. They produced OLB after all.

    As for what we should do, I vote nothing since it is really our only option. I suppose we could not sell them a bunch of weapons. But I hardly see how that is in the US best interest beyond the sake of some virtue signalling for domestic consumption. I guess we could wave some international fingers at them and maybe pull some “red line” media stunts, but it is unlikely to have any real effect within the Kingdom, assuming we even have the right or obligation to try to make changes to it in the first place.

    But if we don’t sell them the hardware, they will just get it from someone else. Then we will have even less say over what they do since we can’t just hold repair parts or maintenance contracts hostage (most FMS hardware in the Arab world comes with nearly 100% contractor maintenance). This already happened recently with the Saudis getting a bunch of armed drones from the Chinese a year or so back. I have a friend who did diplomatic stuff through arms deals. She got all bent out of shape about it. According to her, we apparently lost out on a great opportunity to exert influence by keeping them dependent on us for their Yemeni Iranian proxy killing needs. Similarly the American left, or the small part of it paying attention to anything other than the looming election, also tore their garments over the evil stuff the Saudis were sure to do with their new weapons. Sadly both were right, we would not sell the kingdom armed drones because they would do stuff with it American voters would not like and we might not be able to stop it well enough to mollify public opinion once they started. I personally think we dodged a Hellfire by not doing the deal. And hey, our Intel boys might get to take a peak inside those CHICOM drones if we bribe them right Prince.

    But honestly, why would you buy American weapons when the Yankees are sure to put stipulations on who you can go slaughter with them. The Chinese don’t have such qualms, neither do the French, and the Germans just recently started to mind. Were I were the leader of one of the less than stellar nations to whom we sell hardware, and my goals were the same as their’s often appear to be, I would only “buy American” with money the Americans gave me to do so. In which case, I would gladly help the Uncle Sam launder tax payer money and funnel it to special interest in exchange for some cool tanks and a C-17 to fly my race horses around in. Otherwise, why not do what everyone else on the planet seems to do and buy my stuff from the Chinese. Does FOXCOM make early warning radars yet?

    A portion of the typos in the above message might be my phone, the rest are just me.

    I have been wrong before...

    #63491
    Profile photo of Abacus
    Abacus
    Participant

    Saudi Arabia is a country run by Wahhabists.

    Turkey is a country run by a guy who would be happy to recreate the Ottoman Caliphate.

    Saudi Arabia commits war crimes in Yemen with US weapons, Turkey backs jihadists in Syria with US weapons.

    Both are playing this as hard as they can to claim leadership over the Sunni world, and hopefully get the Americans to take sides to the other’s detriment.

    Fuck both of these countries.

    That is kind of the TL;DR version of my post.

    I would say “fucking” Turkey is a bit harder than Saudi Arabia, even if oil were not a factor. Given Turkey’s NATO status and geography they can get away with a lot of shady stuff unfortunately. Constantinople may be Istanbul now, but its position on the map is just as important today as it was when they changed the name on the tourism brochures in 1453.

    Otherwise, I say we turn Irbil international airport into İncirlik Air Base South, recognize Kurdistan (both the Iraqi and Syrian sides of the country), and tell Turkey to pound sand. While I was at it, I would probably make an official declaration on the Armenians and call a spade genocide. You know because words mean things and cognitive dissonance can be painful.

    We won’t do any of that though because geography is a bitch.

    A portion of the typos in the above message might be my phone, the rest are just me.

    I have been wrong before...

    #63492
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I have never been a fan of the Saudis.

    Historically we like most nations have ignored our so called allies failings for perceived short term benefits and this usually leads to more long term problems.

    I have also despised the Enemy of my Enemy argument.

    What irritates me is the pretend outrage when these “dirtbags” become the current political distraction.

    Yes I am jaded and cynical having long since lost my innocence many decades ago!

    So right know we pretend that the possible murder of a reporter is a moral outrage, yet we threaten, force retire, or remove from command US Military for attempted intervention of child rape by so called Afghani allies.

    I could document many evil things we tolerate as a nation and my child rape example isn’t the worst example.

    Such hypocrisy by all sides sickens me.

    I would prefer if we the good guys as a nation, but while we have many good people we haven’t been moral as a nation in a long time.

    #63496
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    So the moral outrage regarding this disappearance is a lie and a method to manipulate public.

    So who and what organizations are supporting this so called moral outrage?

    Who gains from this narative?

    What is the credibility of these sources?

    #63497
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    I wonder what it would cost to hire the perps to do Soros? I think the world would be a better place bt a long shot if he got disappeared.

    #63498
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Soros is just the public money man and not the source of real power.

    Though it would be interesting to have him the subject of a detailed interrogation. ;-)

    Though I suspect he knows less than many would think.

    He would be easily replaced by those in real power.

    #63499
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    Okay, then for the sake of discussion who or what is he spending the money for? Who or what is the real power? I do like the interrogation idea.

    #63500
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Who or what is the real power?

    Most likely a conglomerate of mostly old money and political power. I know that’s not a very satisfying answer.

    Many will be active in some of the known and unknown power groups that many tinfoil sites follow. Though some will even use cutouts for this.

    History has taught them that being too publicly connected is hazardous if things don’t go according to plan. ;-)

    Pursuing such groups is hazardous to both credibility and more.

    Hence my reluctance to attempt to identify them.

    Even if I had the information, who would believe it?

    I can’t solve corruption in my local government!

    So by what hubris should I attempt a solution at the global level?

    YMMV

    #63501
    Profile photo of Andrew
    Andrew
    Participant

    I’ll buy that. So, old Alex Jones is wrong, or playing with fire, about the Bilderberg folks? :whistle: :bye:

    #63504
    Profile photo of Abacus
    Abacus
    Participant

    The moral outrage over the killing may be real if ineffective. Americans like to pretend everyone else has the same values we have and can’t really understand other cultures.

    One half of the country thinks everywhere else is just Merica with funny names and weird food and should act like it. Thus understanding why another nation might do stuff “we just don’t do” (even of we do it to and just stay quiet about it) is hard.

    The blame America half of the country assumes that anywhere that is not the US must be some sort of paradise on account of not being full of and run by the imperialistic, racist, evil, deplorable folks that they see their countryman as. Those folks therefore can’t fathom how a genuinely diverse (here used to describe the state of not being America and therefore evil rather than its actual meaning) other culture can do evil things.

    I am sure lots of folks genuinely feel, or think they genuinely feel, for the pligt of this guy. We are an emotional species as a rule and Americans are as emotional as any other group of humans with subsets being far less stoic that the mean. How many of those upset folks can actually make a logically consistent moral argument to back up those same feelings is anyone’s guess.

    As for who benefit, Raptor’s portrayal of Turkey and Saudi Arabia trying to get the US to pick sides might not be too far off. Istanbul was pretty quick to huck the kingdom under the bus. We have a nasty habit of picking friends who are not friends with our other friends (friends used sarcasticly in this sense). Any reprecussions to Saudi Arabia over the killing are unlikely to weaken Turkey. They get to be the good guys, a role they don’t get often given their government’s renewed public interest in making the Otoman Empire Great Again. Iran is probably happy to see their cheif Sunni adversary step into it on the world stage too.

    Domestically, this is probably a no win situation for the Trump administration. It probably would be for a Democrat too, but the active resistance movement probably makes it harder on Trump than it would be were a Democrat in office. I bet the media coverage would be different were the media’s preferred party in office. I don’t think that needs a conspiracy theory to explain beyond simple demographics within the industry and the regions where the bulk of that work is done.

    I don’t really buy into much of the deepstate, Soros, Alex Jones stuff. Stuff like that fails the Occam’s razor test to me. I have been wrong before though, so I won’t say it is impossible.

    All that being said, I would eat my hat if the Democratic establishment isn’t at least a little tickled they can complain about the administration over this event so close to the midterms. It happened when he was in office making it not just his fault but also his party’s. This is silly of course, but it fits well with the peculiar way people mix up accountability versus responsibility for events.

    A portion of the typos in the above message might be my phone, the rest are just me.

    I have been wrong before...

    #63505
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I am sure lots of folks genuinely feel, or think they genuinely feel, for the pligt of this guy.

    Sure, but how about the people in roles of power?

    It’s just propaganda to manipulate ignorant people.

    I don’t really buy into much of the deepstate, Soros, Alex Jones stuff.

    That’s why it’s a fools errand to get into it beyond cursory details.

    Most not only can’t see it, they don’t want to know how big a lie the World we live in truly is.

    The false world view most Americans have is certainly true, but I could list many crimes similar to the Khashoggi disappearance right here within our nation that have been conveniently ignored for political reasons.

    It’s only an outrage when it needs to be. ;-)

    So again a reminder due to thread drift…

    So the moral outrage regarding this disappearance is a lie and a method to manipulate public.

    So who and what organizations are supporting this so called moral outrage?

    Who gains from this narative?

    What is the credibility of these sources?

    #63516
    Profile photo of Keeper aka "Sun Shine"
    Keeper
    Participant

    Who cares
    I don’t give a rat fuck, there are FAR WORST things that happens over there that no one hears about in the free world

    Alumni living in N.E Fla. for now. Going to retire in Iowa on the farm some day soon.

    #63522
    Profile photo of Abacus
    Abacus
    Participant

    Keeper has a point. I eventually stopped reading half of my daily intel breif emails when I was on my tour over there. It was always a bummer to see all the aweful shit they were doing to one another just up MSR Tampa that I had no chance of stopping or even influencing. It took six months to shake off the jaded funk I came home with, and I was literally back in there rear with the gear (I lived next to a warehouse full of tanks).

    A portion of the typos in the above message might be my phone, the rest are just me.

    I have been wrong before...

    #63523
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Keep has a point. I eventually stopped reading half of my daily intel breif emails back when I was helping manage the war as an HQ weenie. It was always a bummer to see all the aweful shit they were doing to one another just up MSR Tampa that I had no chance of stopping or even influencing.

    Agree, but an overlooked (by some) part of my role here at the MVT Forum is to encourage critical thinking as it relates to Intelligence.

    How bias affects this, disinformation, and it’s use in a Post-Event situation as a example.

    I already have my own realistic analysis of this Khashoggi situation.

    My agenda is not to brief my analysis to the Forum, but to encourage members to conduct their own analysis!

    I choose events like this for instructional value, not because I feel the need to discuss them.

    Consider:
    Intelligence: The Essential Element

    #63524
    Profile photo of FreedomOak
    FreedomOak
    Participant

    At first blush I think it is none of the US’s beeswax.

    Yeah but he was a US permanent resident and a journalist for WaPo which means he is an agency asset. Also look at the high profile people he is related too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi This is not going away and the agency is going to make a big stink out of this.

    #63527
    Profile photo of wheelsee
    wheelsee
    Participant

    Yeah but he was a US permanent resident and a journalist for WaPo which means he is an agency asset. This is not going away and the agency is going to make a big stink out of this.

    Now THAT’s funny (in an ironic sort of way). Considering Hillary’s use of an unsecured server cost the lives of over 20 assets in China (IIRC) and nothing happened…….

    Which is heavier - a soldier's pack or a slave's chains? Napoleon

    Strength, Honor. Maximus (Gladiator)

    If you tolerate evil, you yourself are evil.
    Col Hugo Martinez, Commander Search Bloc

    William, in The Republic - CRS/CTT 2017, HEAT 2/CQB/FonF 2018, DCH 2018

    #63529
    Profile photo of FreedomOak
    FreedomOak
    Participant

    Now THAT’s funny (in an ironic sort of way). Considering Hillary’s use of an unsecured server cost the lives of over 20 assets in China (IIRC) and nothing happened…….

    Hah yeah, the deep state works in mysterious ways… not a peep about Pelosi’s chinese spy in the media either.

    #63533
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    This is not going away and the agency is going to make a big stink out of this.

    This has nothing to do with any such affiliation real or imagined.

Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.