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Winter Warfare

This topic contains 146 replies, has 27 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of First Sergeant First Sergeant 1 year ago.

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  • #54231
    Profile photo of Pinky
    Pinky
    Participant

    I have one for you experts since we are talking winter warfare. I don’t want to turn this into a tech-talk thread and de-rail it, so please kill it if you believe that to be the case. There is a lesson that is common to above in it – TEST YOUR GEAR IN THE COLD.

    I was out training over the holiday with a relatively new Daniel Defense upper (16″ CHF mid-length chrome govt. profile, DD BCG – all factory stuff) on a Colt M4 factory lower – no franken-gun stuff.

    When I first received the upper, I wiped it down with CLP to get off any factory germs, ran a bore snake through the barrel a few times, then lubed up as per normal with Slip2000 EWL. I have had maybe 3-4 prior range sessions with it over the last month and it has been 100% with brass case ammo, 100% with a limited sample of steel case, both suppressed and unsuppressed – NO ISSUES. This was to be my go-to rifle.

    Fast forward to a couple days ago; it was ~12F one day, maybe ~15F the next (cold snap here in VA). I thought it would be a good time to go do some training/shooting. One important note – I have been using the new poo brown G3 PMAGS, 10-12 in rotation, all have been used with multiple rifles and known good (i.e. I think I have ruled out mags being the cause of my issues).

    Day 1 – In addition to the DD, I ran three rifles with the same PMAGS to check 100Y groups/zeroing (suppressed 10.5″ LMT chrome-lined, suppressed 12.5″ FN CHF chrome-lined, and a 16″ Green Mountain barrel, melonite, franken-gun). All are lubed with Slip EWL out of the same bottle. I ran the DD last in line (i.e it had time to soak in the cold the most) and immediately had failure to feed (bolt stuck about 1/3 into the round, never got out of magazine into chamber). Cleared, repeated, same result, multiple times. Finally got a round to load (it was like watching slow motion video), than click, NO BANG. Tap, rack, click, NO BANG. Repeated about 5 times with the same result. Did this with multiple mags, same issue (including a USGI with magpul follower). These are the same mags that worked just fine with the other rifles in the same shooting session.

    Cleaned up, went inside to investigate. I got the same result in the heated garage when I first got in (new mag with locked back bolt, would not feed). Let it sit for a while to warm, then loaded mag on open bolt and it cycled like a champ, all the way through a mag (rack, eject, rack, eject – no firing). It seemed that warming it up solved the issue.

    I took it apart, wiped it down to reduce the amount of lube thinking that might be the culprit, put it away.

    Day 2 – took another rifle out to zero a new scope. Let the troubled DD sit out in the cold for about 30 mins while I did that. SAME RESULT as Day 1 (failure to feed, FTF when I did get rounds in). Took back to garage, let it warm, cycled like a champ in garage (open bolt, load mag, bolt release, into battery, over and over, just as it should). Wiped all innards totally down with CLP and then with a dry cloth til no carbon then lubed it with 0W-20 Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil. Put it back outside to cold soak for another 30 minutes or so. Then I went back out to range and tested maybe 10 cycles of loading mags from locked bolt, fire, eject, lock bolt to rear, feed mag, fire, etc, etc). It seemed to work just fine with Mobil 1; no failure to feed rounds and all went bang.

    Could this temperature cause Slip2000 EWL to become gelatinous and therefore slow my BCG so much it could not pick up a round? And when I did get a round in the chamber cause the firing pin to be stuck in gelatinous goo and not fire? Seems not that cold based on the specs they advertise. I thought I had too much lube the first day and went to what I’d consider “dry” for day 2 and still had issues. Mobil 1 worked 100% and seemed (subjectively) “thinner” to the touch out in the cold.

    And, why would this behavior show on one rifle and not the others? B/c it is almost brand new maybe? Tighter tolerances? I have no suggestions at this point as to why this is. I do know that I don’t trust this new, pretty expensive rifle in the very cold though.

    Thanks!

    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
    -- Thomas Jefferson

    #54232
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    I’m not sitting here with the specs on SLIP. However, we were out in the same weather. My Colt 6920 OEM 2 came out of the case cold on the range and I had not cleaned it since last use, when it was generously lubed with SLIP. When I went to charge the weapon first time the bolt hung up to the rear. We grabbed a bottle of SLIP that Mike had in his gear and threw it on the bolt, generously. Without racking it, it just sat there until the live fire began. We did notice that the SLIP was thicker than normal, gelatinous.

    When I started firing, no stoppages. I did notice that on my first combat reload the mag would not fall free. Sticky with cold? After that, they all fell free.

    I suspect SLIP thickens with cold. Makes sense? Either that or DD are shit lol. I also notice you mentioned CLP a lot – if that is still on the gun, could that be the underlying issue?

    #54233
    Profile photo of Pinky
    Pinky
    Participant

    thanks Max, good to know. the CLP was used only to clean, not to lube. the kind in the spray can (forgot the brand, but a common one). Spray, wipe/polish with old t-shirt until no black crap came off any more, then I would re-lube. I was heavy on EWL on Day 1 then wiped some off to what I’d say was dry. The Mobil 1 remained thin even in the cold. I use that on my nitrided franken-gun i am testing with nothing but Wolf and not cleaning, not any of my “good” ones. I have read mixed results and opinions on Mobil 1 on AR’s though.

    EWL is rated down to something crazy like Alaska temps though. Watching the bolt after I released it was like a slow motion film. Not so with Mobil 1 though. I wonder if the other rifles that all have probably 2K+ rounds through them are not such an issue due to some wear on the parts?

    thanks

    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
    -- Thomas Jefferson

    #54234
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    *waiting for Scott to jump in with the right answer* :scratch:

    But meanwhile….also perhaps are you overcleaning?

    #54235
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    I have had maybe 3-4 prior range sessions with it over the last month…

    How many rounds (ballpark)?

    #54236
    Profile photo of Pinky
    Pinky
    Participant

    It is possible that I’ve overthought it, but I did not become OCD about cleaning it until I had the issues (I have never been accused of overcleaning…will take that as a compliment!).

    Joe – It probably has 400 rounds through it total. 3-4 mags in each sesssion

    I sent DD a note about it also just for fun. It is the roughest finish I’ve felt on many BCG’s. If you run a tissue over it dry, it shreds pieces of the tissue off. I did some reading and that seems to be a common observation on DD BCG’s (“rough” finish). Even lubed it is rough to the touch on the exterior (the chrome lining looks just fine via flashlight and the bolt moves freely, so I don’t think there are any issues there). It is just the outside that is rough.

    The weird thing is there were zero issues in warmer temps and zero issues if I cycle it in the warm garage.

    thanks

    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
    -- Thomas Jefferson

    #54238
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    It probably has 400 rounds through it total. 3-4 mags in each sesssion

    In theory that should be a ok break in, I normally like a minimum of 250 rounds from me trouble free to depend on it.

    DD BCG’s (“rough” finish)

    Could be a factor.

    As everyone here probably knows heat and cold makes metal expand and contract. In a AR we’re dealing with different metals between BCG and the upper with different expansion/contraction rates.

    The weird thing is there were zero issues in warmer temps and zero issues if I cycle it in the warm garage.

    Extremes in temperature can show varying friction in metals and lubes used.

    We’ll see what First Sergeant thoughts are, but it may need more break in and/or light polishing of the BCG.

    Worse case use what it likes.

    Note: I haven’t had problems beyond lube and moisture in extreme cold. Condensation is not just a weapon problem, magazines can get iced up too.

    Remember for extreme cold we’re talking issue M16’s that I have experience. My Colt AR has faired well in normal CONUS winter weather. I’ve heard good reports using brake fluid as a lube, but this was in colder than -40°F as a field expedient. Remember brake fluid at these temps can cause major injury to exposed skin.

    #54243
    Profile photo of Roadkill
    Roadkill
    Participant

    I believe there is a thicker Slip 2000, which one are you using.

    RS/CTT Nov 16
    HEAT1 Aug18

    #54248
    Profile photo of batsoff
    batsoff
    Participant
    #54254
    Profile photo of Pinky
    Pinky
    Participant

    This one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00635VIY8/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Thanks for the link, will check it out.

    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
    -- Thomas Jefferson

    #54257
    Profile photo of BrigandActual
    BrigandActual
    Participant

    Stumbled across this today… relevant:

    United States Army Northern Warfare Training Center – Cold Weather Student Handout

    Good link, thanks!

    "Man is still the first weapon of war" - Field Marshal Montgomery

    Matt B - VA

    #54258
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I was warm except for my toes. Getting up three times to piss – not so much fun…

    bottle

    #54259
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I did notice that on my first combat reload the mag would not fall free. Sticky with cold? After that, they all fell free.

    I have read that the mag wells of AR15’s and AR10s shrink a bit in the cold and that magpuls don’t. Therefore, you have a tight fit; especially if the mag has been painted all the way to the top. Makes sense to me because Bravo Company asks one to use a heat gun (glue gun) to warm up a new front rail to expand the metal before fitting it on the barrel nut.

    edit; I just noticed that Joe mentioned shrinking metal.

    #54260
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    @Pinky – SLIP should have given you no issues. As you said, it is rated down to stupid temps. I use the SLIP 2000 EWL. It was initially designed for belt feds.

    See as this is a new gun, that may be an issue. Some of the stuff you were seeing may still be remnants of what they coat it with before it is shipped. That combined with the CLP and then SLIP and the cold weather may have caused an issue.

    Sometimes combination of different lubes and cleaners can cause issues. Couple of examples, Rem Oil becomes tacky and attracts shit after awhile. Frog Lube, there is a reason that we call it Frog Glue. There have been some students that have used that in the past at classes and had all kinds of issues.

    My suggestion is to completely clean it. Get some SLIP 2000 725 Gun Cleaner and SLIP Carbon Killer. Those two will strip everything off it. Relube it and try it again.

    The Gun Cleaner and Carbon killer strips everything, so lube needs to be put back on all of the parts.

    DO you have the correct buffer in the rifle? You said you were using a Colt lower, is it a carbine lower? If so, the buffer may be the wrong one.

    The finish on the bolt shouldn’t be that rough. It shouldn’t be smooth either. If DD get’s back to you, let us know what they said.

    What kind of ammo were you using? This is one that most people have no clue about. The cold weather plays havoc with ammo. It causes the velocity to drop. All of you that like to buy the cheapest ammo you can get need to look into that. I am very particular about even my training ammo because of this.

    @Max – mags not dropping free is due to the cold weather. As cold as it’s been, it causes the metal to contract. That’s the reason for mags not dropping free.

    Now is the time to get your rifles out and run them and find out what kind of issues you may have. Ammo issues, mags not dropping free etc.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #54261
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Water Bottle Freezing Test

    Goal: find out which of the selected water bottles would remain unfrozen the longest. Both standard and covered with a water bottle jacket.

    Test: Placed in freezer at 8-10 degrees. Checked several times and at each check the bottle was shaken before putting back in freezer. All water put in the bottles was warm bath temperature.

    Bottles:

    Hunderdorf 1 ltr bottle, Nalgene 1 ltr bottle, Italian Aluminum canteen, Standard REI stainless single wall 1 ltr bottle, USGI platic canteen, USGI 2 qt canteen, USGI Arctic Canteen.

    Water Jackets:
    40Below Company jacket
    Nalgene jacket with relective material on the inside
    Outdoor Research SG Water Bottle parka (military issue)

    I placed a Hunersdorf bottle in each of the water jackets

    Results:

    5 hours:

    Unjacketed bottles were all slushy but able to drink. USGI canteen and 2qt were very difficult to get the top off.

    9 hours:

    All bottles were frozen for the most part but you could stick a knife down to break the ice and still get some water. The following bottles I was unable to get the cap off: nalgene, USGI 1 qt, USGI 2 qt. So they would have to be warmed up to even open the cap.

    20 hours: (next morning)

    All unjacketed bottles frozen solid.
    Jacketed bottles had about half water and you could stick a knife inside to break up the ice.
    The Arctic canteen was half frozen but the small hole was useless to get anything other than a skinny stick inside to break up the ice.

    Lessons learned:

    The Italian wide mouth aluminum canteen was great. Opened easily, even overnight. The mouth was wide so you could use your knife; and because it is metal you can place it near the fire to melt. VERY COLD to the touch. Keep the cheap cover it comes with.

    I was disappointed in the Arctic canteen. Cold to the touch and froze up equal to the jacked plastic

    The OR SG jacket rocked! I could drink half the bottle before resorting to a knife to break up the ice. Second place the Nalgene cover and then the 40below cover.

    Wide Mouth is a must in my opinion.

    #54264
    Profile photo of Pinky
    Pinky
    Participant

    Thanks 1SG. Will do. I looked at the CLP and it is Break Free CLP for whatever that is worth.

    It is a Colt H2 buffer. It did run like a sewing machine in warm weather, with can and without.

    Ammo is Wolf Gold (I use that almost exclusively for training ammo).

    Will let you know if DD responds.

    Thanks All!

    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
    -- Thomas Jefferson

    #54265
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Water Bladder Test

    Source 3 ltr bag
    HydraPak 3 ltr bag

    Same test as the bottles.

    Filled with bath warm water. I drank some from the tubes; then blew air back into the bladder. Raised the tube to ensure no water in tube. Made sure tube was above bladder while in the freezer. Closed bite grip.

    4 hours later.

    Both bladders half frozen. Tubes not working. Bite grips would not work. Both bladders could be unlocked however, and water drunk from the top. The Source had a large cap that could be unscrewed rather than having to open the top. In any case you would have to take the bag out of your pack and then drink the water from the top as the tubes were useless. Not sure which end the tubes were frozen, if not both ends.

    Interesting note. Our cleaning lady is from Holland and for years I have been doing tests with water bladders and then hanging them in my basement shower. Last year I happened to be downstairs when she was there and told her that I would move the water bladders. She said “is that what they are? For all these years I thought they were enema bags; but didn’t want to say anything.”

    #54304
    Profile photo of RobRoy
    RobRoy
    Participant

    I work in the cold weather, not by choice but it is part of the gig, I use goggles, dirtbike style googles. They work for shit with glasses but without glasses and with a face mask they are the deal for me.

    Also I use a primitive 1980s cold weather parka with that hood with spiffy fake fur but with wire on the edge so the hood forms as I need it to.

    West Coast Chris years ago recommended the Hydro Flask I fill it with hot water and drink it as more than I think I need.

    #54316
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I tested a 16oz thermos brand (same test as the bottles and bags) and it went 48 hours before starting to ice over. But it was easy to break the ice and drink. So, I imagine it would go another 8 hrs before being totally iced over.

    The benefit of thermos is that you can go longer before freezing. The disadvante is that you cannot heat them up next to a fire.

    My guess is that I will carry 2 stainless steel or aluminum canteen/bottles in a SG Outdoor Research jacket as my primary water supply in freezing weather. And a smaller thermos of some type for warm water and/or bullion cubes.

    #54318
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Skywalker, the Italian aluminium canteen is very similar to the Austrian stainless ones I have. I got them after watching Bergmann’s Alaska evasion videos. Being able to warm them by the fire, and to melt snow in them is a big advantage.

    BTW, if you have the canteens upside down, then the ice will form at the bottom part of the container.

    #54322
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Skywalker, the Italian aluminium canteen is very similar to the Austrian stainless ones I have. I got them after watching Bergmann’s Alaska evasion videos. Being able to warm them by the fire, and to melt snow in them is a big advantage.

    BTW, if you have the canteens upside down, then the ice will form at the bottom part of the container.

    LOL I just bought 4 of them yesterday.

    I searched all over for Bergmanns video on canteens but couldn’t find it. Do you happen to have the link?

    #54325
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    Do you have a recommendation for winter warfare gloves?

    And what are other members using & what results have you experienced?

    @farmer – For dry cold temps I use the Intermediate Cold Flyers Glove. They were designed for chopper pilots, so you have some dexterity. I have used them down into the teens and had no issues. The biggest issue is they are not waterproof, so you have to take that into consideration. One way to avoid that issue is to have two pair of them. Wear one and put the wet pair inside of what you are wearing so your body heat dries them. You can do the same thing with wet socks.
    fortbraggsurplus.us/Intermediate-Cold-Flyers-Glove-HAU-15P-p/flyers-glove.htm

    I have also used a thin pair of poly pro glove liners under the cold weather gloves. Gives a little more warmth and if you have to take your gloves off, you don’t have to touch anything with your bear hands.
    amazon.com/Black-GI-Polypropylene-Glove-Liners/dp/B000HKPFS0

    For colder temps, you still can’t beat mittens. They are the best for keeping your hands warm. I still use the GI trigger finger mittens, cause they work. If you get a set, make sure you get two pair of liners. For the same reason I talked about above, one can be drying while you wear the other pair.

    Outdoor Research has the new version of the trigger finger mittens. They developed them for the military.

    One thing that is very important when it comes to gloves, get the right size. If they don’t fit right, they wont work like they are supposed to.

    Using gloves while manipulating your rifle is something you have to practice with. Be it regular gloves or trigger finger mittens. You also need to look at your trigger guard. The standard one one on AR’s is hinged for cold weather work. I use the Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard. Gives you more room with gloves.

    @Robert

    This is the recommendation for gloves. Saw your post in the other thread.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #54329
    Profile photo of First Sergeant
    First Sergeant
    Moderator

    Bivy bags-in cold weather, bivy bags make all the difference in the world.

    I know a lot of you are trying to go light weight with gear. In the winter and cold temps, that can kill you. Get one of the military issue bivy bags. Not only will it keep you dry, but it will cut the wind.

    I know some of you like and use the Snugpack sleeping bags. Good bags but I will always use the Army issue sleep system. Here’s why. The system is configurable to the weather conditions. It comes with a bivy bag, intermediate bag and a patrol bag.

    Patrol bag for cool temps with bivy, intermediate for colder temps with bivy, and then for even colder temps, combine the patrol bag with the intermediate bag and the bivy.

    I have spent the night in the rain using the bivy cover and was dry in the morning. We weren’t able to build hootches.

    One last story about bivy bags. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I happened to find myself in the German Alps, in December, in a blizzard. We cleared out snow, laid down a ponchos as ground sheets, pus pad on top of that and then got in our bags. These were the first generation gortex bags that the Army issued. We survived the night. No snow got in the bag and I was warm and dry the next morning.

    I also recommend Thermarest sleeping mats. They flat out work. Get a full length, not a 3/4 length. I will let @Mike Q explain why.

    I always carry a poncho liner with me also. Year round. I put it in the bag, cover up with it and then zip the bag up. It adds extra insulation.

    Chapstick. Always have some with you. And an extra tube. Your lips are going to dry out fast from the cold and wind.

    If you are in a lot of snow, always wear sunglasses. The glare from the sun off of the snow can cause snow blindness.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #54333
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Bivy bags-in cold weather, bivy bags make all the difference in the world.

    :good:

    Chapstick. Always have some with you. And an extra tube. Your lips are going to dry out fast from the cold and wind.

    If you are in a lot of snow, always wear sunglasses. The glare from the sun off of the snow can cause snow blindness.

    Dito!

    #54334
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Intermediate Cold Flyers Glove

    I haven’t used these, but just ordered a pair to try at a decent price.

    The one size larger Flight gloves with correct size GI wool liners I’ve used because of the quick drying when separated.

    Look forward to comparing them.

    #54340
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    <
    LOL I just bought 4 of them yesterday.

    I searched all over for Bergmanns video on canteens but couldn’t find it. Do you happen to have the link?

    Here is his YouTube channel. Should be in there somewhere.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyGlyapnbKc3jnHAWSO7pbw

    #54341
    Profile photo of Mike Q
    Mike Q
    Participant

    3/4 therm-a-rests allow from your knees down to lay directly on the ground. Perfectly fine for the summer. Horrible for the winter. November patrol class at the VTC – got down into the 20’s that night. Bad night. I was next to useless the next day. I learned what may work for someone like 1st Sergeant in the winter will not work for me. I will have to carry more gear then a bigger framed individual simply because I’m cold all the time.

    The main point to what everyone is saying is this. Test all of your gear in every weather condition now. What doesn’t work can easily be fixed with the push of a button and some money.

    There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it twice.

    CRM Sept. 2014, CTT 1505, CTT July 2015, RC-Rifleman 1502, CP Nov. 2015, FoF March 2016, CCW May 2016, FoF Oct. 2016, FoF Nov. 2016, CLC April 2017, FoF Nov. 2017, Alumni weekend Aug. 2018, CQB Dec. 2018

    #54344
    Profile photo of Max Velocity
    Max
    Keymaster

    The major point is really being missed here, in this discussion of gear for extreme cold weather. It goes back to my posts on the MVT Lite Fight Concept. All mission planning is a function of leadership. Carrying a large amount of gear on patrol is probably not practical, for all the reasons laid out in that other post. So plan accordingly.

    Don’t go out. Go out for shorter periods. Use vehicles or ATVs. You get the idea.

    Those of you using Bergmann as a model for your gear /mission planning are barking up the wrong tree. Use him for gear tips only. Why? A whole post of its own. Think about it in terms of my other posts. He is an outlier, an exception that proves the rule.

    You have all heard of Bravo Two Zero? You probably have not heard of the identical patrol (lead by a young officer) that set down in a chopper on the same mission in a different place. Got out, got back in, mission aborted. Common sense mission planning. No book deal.

    #54349
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Carrying a large amount of gear on patrol is probably not practical, for all the reasons laid out in that other post. So plan accordingly.

    Are you paying attention here?

    Operating in ECW takes more gear, but are you capable of that type of mission?

    No really?

    Let’s have a logistical sidenote:

    The canteen discussion within this thread, how many hours does canteen water need to stay liquid?

    Assuming your not carrying water for the sake of carrying it, do you know just how much you need to be drinking to stay hydrated?

    It’s a lot and without sufficient hydration you can’t burn those high calories you need to stay effective. It all goes together.

    Why are you going out? I assume it’s a real mission, so for our considerations a patrol/recon or possibly a assault.

    Melting snow or a frozen canteen takes a lot of time and fuel? A one day operation could take a extra 4 to 6 hours just to support this water method which means more food needed and a extra day and a maybe a overnight.

    Now if your just out in the cold surviving its good busy work/hobby. ;-)

    How many people? How many stoves and how much fuel do you need to support this in a timely manner?

    Of course all of this depends on your AO’s resources.

    The fastest way is fill canteen in lake/pond/river, quickly add purification tablet, and place canteen in between jacket and your body. Remember to wait sufficient time for tablet to work.

    Again AO dependent.

    Remember many of these survival methods individually don’t seem like such a big deal, but combined they take time and resources.

    Then of course in our context it’s to support a mission, not just surviving.

    You better get out there and run a training exercise to learn these realities and verify if you can actually do it!

    All mission planning is a function of leadership.

    Can’t learn this just by reading these posts.

    #54350
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    We are using Bergmann for gear tips, not for mission planning, with the exception of wilderness camping. We are well aware that his situation is different. I pay attention to his cold weather gear choices because they have proven themselves to be rugged and durable, which is what I am looking for in a post-collapse situation. Rugged gear will last longer. That’s why I prefer US/Brit surplus gear.

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