Small Unit Tactics contact patriot-dawn Patriot Rising

Winter Warfare

Viewing 27 posts - 121 through 147 (of 147 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #54354
    Profile photo of Max VelocityMax
    Keymaster

    We are using Bergmann for gear tips, not for mission planning, with the exception of wilderness camping. We are well aware that his situation is different. I pay attention to his cold weather gear choices because they have proven themselves to be rugged and durable, which is what I am looking for in a post-collapse situation. Rugged gear will last longer. That’s why I prefer US/Brit surplus gear.

    Actually makes less sense than you think although defensive. There is more nuance here. Bergmann’s choice of load-out is intimately tied in with his philosophy of survival i.e. his intended mission planning. In fact he is planning to do everything I have advised you not to do with the MVT gear / mission planning philosophy. Hence the comment about him being an outlier / exception that proves the rule. This is of course not intended to be derogatory against him, it just is what it is.

    I have no intent to EVER pack up my PLCE Bergan and head out into the wilderness. You should give deep thought to the context of any mission planning and tatical operations you might conduct. After all, most of us are not even single / without kids and that puts out a Bergmann strategy from the start. You are going to have some sort of home base and I have talked about the reality of ‘bugging out’ in the relevant post.

    If you find yourself heading out with a large fully packed ruck, you may need to go back to your mission planning.

    Canteen recommendations aside LOL.

    #54370
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Inactive

    Indeed, I agree Max. My loadout is: Light Battle Belt/Chest Rig or Plate Carrier (mission dependent) and Assault Pack with mission essential gear. I won’t be “bugging out” as I have a rural retreat and a group.

    I do like the stainless canteens. Much more rugged and don’t weigh that much more than plastic.

    #54465
    Profile photo of JohnnyMacJohnnyMac
    Participant

    I went out on a hike this weekend, up a small mountain (hill/ridge, 1000ft). Conditions were 5F with 15mph gusting to 20mph, and 4-12″ of snow, elevation dependent. I traveled roughly 4 miles in about 90 minutes, pack dry weight of 33lbs- roughly 50% slower than it would take me in dry conditions.

    Some take aways:

    -Feet were warm enough with two pairs of wool socks and Lowa Zephyr boots

    -The OR Highcamp mittens are the shit, hands were warm and I could still use my hands. Thanks for the recommendation @FirstSergeant

    -I wore a thin nylon balaclava with ballistic goggles. This combo sucke, a lot. The balaclava was way too thin and the goggles fogged. With some technique, I could minimize fogging, by exhaling down. I ended up choosing to pull the balaclava down and exposing my nose/upper lip for a clear view.

    -As a test, I took a Source 3L hydration bladder to see how long it would take to freeze. It has an uninsulated nylon jacket on the tube. I meant to blow the water out of the tube but forgot. It was frozen solid in roughly 15 minutes. Water in the bladder never froze.

    -I didn’t fall, although there were a few near misses and some penguin walking across some frozen streams.

    -Even though I was layered pretty well (base layer, mid layer, light parka) and moving, I could still feel my body having to make an effort to maintain core temperature. If I weren’t moving I would’ve needed a heavier fleece under the parka.

    -There were parts that snowshoes or skis would have been awesome, but other parts were very rocky. I’ve never used either pieces of equipment. Any advice here?

    -It was fun! (not when the wind wasn’t gusting)

    -This is a high traffic trail, and for half the time, the only footprints were those of deer and rabbit. I might have seen some fox tracks, but didn’t want to stop moving to look closer. There’s something about walking through snow untouched by others.

    #54499
    Profile photo of First SergeantFirst Sergeant
    Moderator

    @JohnnyMac

    Advice on how to use showshoes or what kind?

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #54502
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Inactive

    @johnnymac

    Advice on how to use showshoes or what kind?

    I have heard, that there are two basic types of snowshoes….those for powder and those for harder pack. Here in Utah you can sink real fast in deep, fluffy powder. But if you are being tactical around trees you can’t wear 5 foot long snowshoes.

    I am not a snowshoe expert and have wanted to buy a good set of “all around” tactical snowshoes; so I am seeking input from those that have been there done that.

    #54504
    Profile photo of JohnnyMacJohnnyMac
    Participant

    Advice on how to use showshoes or what kind?

    Sorry I wasn’t clear, specifically:

    -When is it appropriate to use snowshoes from the perspective of terrain?

    #54531
    Profile photo of mark9mmpmark9mmp
    Participant

    Not sure if this fits in here but what rucks are folks using for winter loads as well as sleep systems? I ask because my GI sleep system even in its sack takes up most of my ruck space. I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag and wearing more to bed to make up for the less insulative bag to save space. Thoughts?

    Just a regular guy. Native Kansan and current Okie.

    #54532
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    Thoughts?

    If you find yourself heading out with a large fully packed ruck, you may need to go back to your mission planning.

    I would consider Max’s observation.

    I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag…

    Try it out on a typical Winter night, just make sure you have a escape plan to avoid injury if it doesn’t work out.

    Actual use is the only way to know!

    #54565
    Profile photo of SeanTSeanT
    Moderator

    Not sure if this fits in here but what rucks are folks using for winter loads as well as sleep systems? I ask because my GI sleep system even in its sack takes up most of my ruck space. I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag and wearing more to bed to make up for the less insulative bag to save space. Thoughts?

    Going to depend on the temps but I think all 4 of us were in USGI gear 12/31
    with additional fresh, dry, appropriate clothes on inside all 3 bags I got shiver cold by the end of the night.

    #54570
    Profile photo of Joe (G.W.N.S.)Joe (G.W.N.S.)
    Moderator

    …inside all 3 bags I got shiver cold by the end of the night.

    This is why you need to try it yourself, no one size fits all answers.

    You have to learn your own limitations!

    Remember it’s beyond just surviving.

    In training I have survived cold with uncontrolled shivering all night, but it certainly didn’t provide the needed rest to perform the following day.

    Extreme fatigue can kill you through distraction as quick as the enemy.

    #54579
    Profile photo of JohnnyMacJohnnyMac
    Participant

    my GI sleep system even in its sack takes up most of my ruck space. I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag and wearing more to bed to make up for the less insulative bag to save space.

    Now I preface this with I’m a thin guy and I’m typically the first to start shivering. I think civilian sleeping bag options far exceed the performance of surplus sleep systems. They are lighter and more compressible for comparable performance. The North face cat’s meow with the usgi bivy is my current winter setup.

    #54588
    Profile photo of First SergeantFirst Sergeant
    Moderator

    Advice on how to use showshoes or what kind?

    Sorry I wasn’t clear, specifically:

    -When is it appropriate to use snowshoes from the perspective of terrain?

    That is going to vary by location. I have used them mostly in Europe and some in Afghanistan and the states.

    It’s not really the terrain but the amount of snow. Packed snow is easier to move in than deep powder. Snowshoes make breaking trail a hell of a lot easier than just trying to walk in it.

    Just walking will wear your ass out quick. Then add wearing kit and carrying a rifle while actively patrolling, it gets worse.

    There may be times when you need the snowshoes. Then you get to a certain point and the snow has changed or the terrain has, then you have take them off, strap them to your ruck and walk. The you need them again.

    As to sleep systems, I made my recommendation earlier in the thread. You figure out what works for you.

    I agree with what Max is saying about making the decision if you really need to be about there or not. What you have to understand is that Murphy gets vote, you may just plan on being out for a couple of hours and then shit goes sideways. I have had that happen to me before and it fucking sucks. If you are out in the temps we had last week, it will kill you.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #54590
    Profile photo of JohnnyMacJohnnyMac
    Participant

    but the amount of snow.

    then you have take them off, strap them to your ruck and walk. The you need them again.

    Thanks @FirstSergeant!

    #54658
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Inactive

    Not sure if this fits in here but what rucks are folks using for winter loads as well as sleep systems? I ask because my GI sleep system even in its sack takes up most of my ruck space. I’ve been considering just using my green patrol sleeping bag and wearing more to bed to make up for the less insulative bag to save space. Thoughts?

    You can compress it a lot more than you’d think. Cinch down the straps on the circumference of the compression sack first, as tight as they will go. Then, tighten down the vertical straps. You can lean on the top or sit on it.

    #54682
    Profile photo of RampantRaptorrampantraptor
    Participant

    Kinda random but a friend gave me one of these thick winter kefis while I was in Kurdistan and they’re super nice for wrapping up around your head nice and tight or throwing over yourself for an extra layer of fabric when laying down. They also help keep the flies off your face in the spring until it gets too hot. I’m basically like Linus and his blankie with this thing whenever I go out now. I used to bash the hipsters but now the Kurds got me hooked on these damn things.

    https://www.zozan.com/clothing/scarfs/492/gerila/peshmerga-scarf-green-premium?c=89

    For some reason the green ones seem to be thicker from the other colors from my experience, still planning to pick up a brown/tan one eventually.

    Honestly it usually doesn’t get arctic cold here (very sporadically) so I haven’t invested much in cold weather gear yet.

    #RaqqaSummer2017
    - - -
    Jîn, Jiyan, Azadî

    #54700
    Profile photo of Hello Kitty (Craig)hellokitty
    Participant

    As Joe recommends sleep out in backyard with just the patrol pack at different temps. And you’ll have your answer. Personally temps below 40 and the patrol pack will get cold.

    As far as the sleep system goes, I don’t put in a sack. The Bivy is the sack and it get crammed into the bottom of my pack.

    As Max has said, your not going to be humping a PC with a combat load, weapon, assault pack and a ruck. You can’t do it and be combat effective. I look at my ruck as being a home away from home that I will most likely transport via vehicle. I really only plan to patrol with just a small light assault pack. No ruck.

    CTT 1502, NODF 1502, CP 1503, RC 002- Rifleman, FoF x 2, Run and Gun, RS/CTT, CLC, CQBC, Heat 1

    Craig S.

    #54751
    Profile photo of tangotango
    Participant

    Circling to Johnny’s original question, and how all these gear considerations will affect your leadership and tactical planning: movement, supply, and logistics.

    Your unit will not be as quick and swift as in summertime. Some maneuvers may not be possible anymore thanks to weather, altered terrain, or the fact that you’re just too cold and weighed down with gear. Attend any class at MVT in the cold and see how easy it is for everyone to get bogged down by their cold weather gear. Don’t plan a 5 stage attack with 3 flank maneuvers. The link from @Johnnymac of Finnish Motti tactics shows them attacking perpendicular to an enemy line, breaking it, and holding it. That’s a single troop movement – simple enough to execute and really limits the amount of risk. In this case, if anything goes wrong with your attack you can’t just wait it out. The enemy can use the weather against you to just freeze you out.

    The Finns smartly attacked key Russian supply points in their line making it difficult for the Russians to maintain life. All of the Russians were underclothed and underfed. The Finns were able to secure their supply lines against the Russians for a number of reasons, but the point stands that they were able to keep themselves warm, fed, and effective. Their ability to maneuver, especially in their rear, was rarely compromised.

    Leading to Logistics – the Finns were able to maintain freedom of movement while the Russians were limited to a single column. It’s pretty hard to maintain supply when it has only one path to travel – up and down your column. As stated repeatedly here you are going to need lots of supplies to maintain your unit’s effectiveness in winter. Don’t plan movements where you, or your supply chain, risk being cut off by the weather. This is an obvious consideration for any battle plan but extra emphasis in the cold.

    The Finns were a very low budget operation with very good training and extreme familiarity to the AO. They used skis, sleds, snowshoes, etc. to execute their movements. The Russians had vehicles and were unable to navigate the tough terrain.

    Keep context in mind the Russo-Finnish war was fought primarily in the woods. Urban winter fighting, probably seek tactical examples elsewhere.

    Baptême du feu
    L'appel du vide

    #54761
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Inactive

    I have a 1942 SAKO Mosi Nagant. If guns could talk.

    #54769
    Profile photo of First SergeantFirst Sergeant
    Moderator

    Talking about moving in snow. How many of you are using gaiters?

    They keep your lower legs dry and keep snow from getting inside of your boots.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #54796
    Profile photo of tangotango
    Participant

    Talking about moving in snow. How many of you are using gaiters?

    They keep your lower legs dry and keep snow from getting inside of your boots.

    @firstsergeant any particular brand/model?

    Baptême du feu
    L'appel du vide

    #54797
    Profile photo of lovemygearlovemygear
    Participant

    I have tried many gaiter models over the years and the best I have found are the OR Crocodiles. I recommend the Expedition model in Coyote. They have a replaceable instep strap. However they are getting hard to find. I have a pair of the Crocodiles (black) that I have had since 1994 and they are still going strong.

    #54798
    Profile photo of Max VelocityMax
    Keymaster

    For most of this thread I have been pushing back on people from a family survival perspective, and urging people to be realistic in terms of operations they may be considering, and weight of gear. That is probably still appropiate, and this has become a long and useful gear thread.

    Tango broadened the scope with talk of Finns in WW2. I suspect that this should be opened into a separate thread. Although I have been urging people to be realisitc from a gear / mission planning perspecrive, this is the MVT forum and there is no aspect of tactics or warfare that is not welcome for discussion.

    So how about a specific winter warfare tactics thread? @tango

    #54806
    Profile photo of tangotango
    Participant

    So how about a specific winter warfare tactics thread?

    Roger that.

    Baptême du feu
    L'appel du vide

    #54847
    Profile photo of First SergeantFirst Sergeant
    Moderator

    Talking about moving in snow. How many of you are using gaiters?

    They keep your lower legs dry and keep snow from getting inside of your boots.

    @firstsergeant any particular brand/model?

    As was posted before, Outdoor Research Expedition Crocodile’s. I to have used several different ones and these are the best I have ever used.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

    #54856
    Profile photo of mark9mmpmark9mmp
    Participant

    So not to beat a dead horse, i do appreciate the answers regarding sleep systems, but with the fight light concept am i correct in assuming that in a winter environment either a vehicle will be used to carry heavy gear vs a ruck or one will simply not stay out overnight? Its comes back to the mission planning aspect i realize.

    Just a regular guy. Native Kansan and current Okie.

    #54859
    Profile photo of JohnnyMacJohnnyMac
    Participant

    Its comes back to the mission planning aspect i realize.

    This. It’s so situational dependent there isn’t a one-size-fits-all answer. I think the point Max was making (he can correct me if I’m wrong) with not staying out overnight, is that for the average person, the conclusion falling out of the mission planning process will be “the risk of staying out overnight tonight is too great (for whatever reasons)”. On another night, or a different mission, or a different AO, or a different team, etc- the conclusion might be different. It could be something as simple as, ‘the situation has changed’. Example: running a nearly identical mission, when we patrolled this AO before, we weren’t friends with those guys, but now we can crash at their place.

    #54890
    Profile photo of First SergeantFirst Sergeant
    Moderator

    So not to beat a dead horse, i do appreciate the answers regarding sleep systems, but with the fight light concept am i correct in assuming that in a winter environment either a vehicle will be used to carry heavy gear vs a ruck or one will simply not stay out overnight? Its comes back to the mission planning aspect i realize.

    Yes. You have to decide if you really need to be out in it. You may not have a choice or you may be able to delay based on the weather.

    This is also where intel comes in. What are the bad guys capabilities? Take the Taliban for example, the did not like to fight at night nor did they like fight in the winter time. A lot of them left the country during the winter and went to Pakistan.

    FILO
    Signal out, can you identify.
    Je ne regrette rien...
    Klagt Nicht, Kämpft

Viewing 27 posts - 121 through 147 (of 147 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.